Suggestions on NNTP Client + misc comments on the state of software

Published Sat, Jan 7 2006 18:21 | William

I've been using the IE 7 Beta for my browser for a while and really like it.  I've contemplated using Firefox for a while but haven't been all that impressed.  The main reason I even considered using Firefox is because Frans strongly advocates its  and he always has good reasons to support beliefs he feels strongly about.  But there's a few things I really dislike about Firefox.  More than anything it's the arrogant "I'm better than you" tone that most Firefox users have when discussing anything related to the web.  My friend and coworker Andy Lines recently tipped me off to what seems to epitomize this attitude.  However just about every single day I find myself in a position where I'm talking with someone about a web page or an email I sent and they have some problem pulling it up.  So I repeat the URL, username or password and then hear the inevitable "Yah, but I'm in Firefox and ..."  I know, the problem isnt' with Firefox, it's with the fact that most sites are written for IE (and as Frans correctly points out, if standards were implemented in all browsers this would cease to be an issue) but it's nonetheless annoying.  I guess the main reason I don't use it is that for a long time  asp.net pages often rendered really strangely in Firefox.  That seems to be a non-issue these days but habits are hard to break and I just don't get too fired up over browsers.

However and this is a big however, it seems like with respect to NNTP Clients, there's a lot of difference.  Back when I was trying to teach myself Linux, I made the mistake of posting to Comp.OS.Linux.Advocacy using Outlook Express.  So every time I posted something I was accused of being a 'Mafia$oft' spy or something stupid like that and pretty much realized that COLA wasn't the place for anyone that isn't willing to fall on the sword for Linux.  As a looked to ther places, I got the same sort of flack and I've been told by a few semi-objective nonWindows users I know Outlook Express is looked down upon by everyone other than hard core Microsoft fans.  I have to admit that I find Outlook Express very mediocre.  Since it's a free product I don't expect much from it but I basically think that it gets the job done but that's about it.  One of the thing that really annoys me is that Outlook doesn't have a NNTP Reader.  There might be Plug-in or killer add-in like NewsGator that handles the integration but I haven't found one. So having to use Outlook 2003 *and* Outlook Express is a bit of a drag.  So I just installed Thunderbird.  I have to admit that I'm very impressed.  Very impressed.  I'm addicted to Outlook 2003 as my mail client so I won't be changing that but as far as a NNTP reader goes, I'm loving Thunderbird .

So what do I think makes it better?  First off, it's a newer product so the UI has been redone and has a cleaner look and feel.  But right off the bat when you reply   it does some nice stuff, namely it fills in "So and So wrote" and then quotes their response and positions your cursor at the bottom.  It also uses the whole screen instead of just using a small portion of it MDI style so it's really easy to quote the original message and post underneath each portion that you're responding to.  Yep, you can do this farily simply in OE but unless I'm missing something, it seems a whole lot simpler in Thunderbird.

With that said, I'm just wondering if there are other clients that people really like out there (I'm sure there are, I'm just wondering what they are).  Does anyone know of an add-in like Newsgator for NNTP and Outlook? Does anyone else use a different NNTP Client?  If so, would you be kind enough to tell me about it and maybe a few of the features that you really like about the given product?  I realize this is probably a pretty lame post, I just hadn't ever put much thought into it and just took using OE for granted.  But it's a new year and I've started doing my typical new year  inventory of stuff I may want to change. I typically look to those smarter than me (which is a pool of about 6 billion people), people  like  Frans for suggestions and he has a great example of a thought provoking article by Jon Skeet detailing why he feels Visual Studio .Net may not be the best IDE available. I'm still a huge VS Fan but articles like Jon's, as well as this eye opener from the inimitable Charles Petzold does offer some food for thought.  So I figured while I'm at it, I ought to take a look at a few other products that I use without thinking about it.

Comments

# Jason Mauss said on January 7, 2006 4:08 PM:

For a long time, back when I actually perused the newsgroups a lot (and even had a Giganews account) I used a client called "Agent" - but I don't remember who makes it.

*Googling....please wait.*

ahh, here it is. - <a href="http://www.forteinc.com/agent/index.php">http://www.forteinc.com/agent/index.php</a>

Good luck - can't wait til the supposed NNTP client is added to Outlook 12.

# Jason Mauss said on January 7, 2006 4:34 PM:

Oh, and as far as Firefox goes - I'm with Frans. Firefox is awesome. I'll still use IE occasionally if a page only renders well in IE (I just have to right-click in Firefox and choose 'View this page in IE' thanks to the IE extension I installed).

I'm definitely not one of the people who goes around saying I'm better than someone b/c of the browser I use but, from my point of view, Firefox is superior to IE for many reasons:

1. The extensions (for example, http://www.allpeers.com/index_f.htm)
2. Security (When I switched from IE to Firefox my spyware decreased by like 99%)
3. Standards (Firefox renders according to standards better than IE 6.x currently does)
4. Stability (Firefox rarely ever crashes or gets hung up like IE has for me in the past)
5. Tabs (at the time, IE didn't have them, IE 7 has a BETTER tabbed experience though, I'll admit, according to the demo of it shown at CES recently)

That's just a short, quick list. IE 7 is going to have to kick major a33 to make me want to switch back.

# KF said on January 7, 2006 6:34 PM:

The five points that Jason makes are exactly right. And it is worth mentioning that the first recommendation given to me for FireFox was from a certain Bill Ryan (ahem!)... After this, my company started using the FireFox extensions to help us test web compliance/accessibility standards(https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/?application=firefox).

However in all fairness, what Bill mentions here about the superior tone is true, but I think I've seen this more in the context of disdain for all things Microsoft rather than devotion to FireFox. I've seen the 'IE is evil' rants a little too often for my taste. In one newsgroup, someone asked me why my company would even test our websites in IE. I thought this was ridiculous. Like it or not, IE is still used by a majority of users and this is especially true in businesses and government, so anyone who discounts IE is not being realistic.

As an aside, I think it will be interesting to see what features Microsoft will add in future versions of IE, seeing that FireFox is rapidly gaining marketshare. Certainly they are taking notice of this.

# One of Billz Cuckooz said on January 7, 2006 7:59 PM:

Old Y3llow A55 - I heard that you're one of the ones that can't figure out how to press a 'submit' button because it's in firefox - Mwuahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha Mwuwhahahahahahaha

# William said on January 7, 2006 8:17 PM:

Kim - Sorry about EDC,there's not much I can do about him though, he runs his mouth and I can't really stop him.

EDC, please dont' torment the girlfriend.

Jason - many thanks man, I appreciate the links.

# Andy Lines said on January 9, 2006 7:42 AM:

If IE was more secure and had support for extensions, I'd be all over it. But as it stands right now, access to IE is completely locked down on both of my home computers and only gets unlocked when I need to go to the Windows Update site. Along the status bar of my Firefox window I can have my weather forecast, the page load timer for my FasterFox extension, the IP address of the page I'm visiting, and a colorpicker not unlike the eyedropper in PhotoShop. You just don't have that functionality in IE.

Now in regards to the "Too Cool for IE" stuff, that's just plain stupidity. I can't stand elitism and as much as these guys think they're being cool for shunning Microsoft, they're just as bad as the folks who only code for IE. IMHO, all sites should be cross-browser compatible. There's no way I'm gonna tell 70% of the market that they have to use a different browser just to look at my site, because most folks just won't bother. Now, if all browsers would adopt the standards, there'd be no need for all this cross-browser stuff and everyone could just use whatever browser they like best with no concerns about the way pages are going to be rendered. But I feel we're still miles away from that so I'll just keep putting hacks in my CSS until everybody comes to their senses.

# Tobin Titus [MVP] said on January 9, 2006 9:32 AM:

Standards are great, but only to the extent that they allow anyone to write software against that standard and it will "just work". In my opinion, if a browser wants to implement features that are out of the norm, a user should be able to flip them on and off with a switch or by plugging/unplugging modules. The only way "this web thing of ours" works is if we all took the same "standards omerta". That was the initial dream of the web -- to be able to communicate easily between platforms. Anything beyond that is a fine use -- as long as the origional idea gets framed in the manner for which it was designed, and the rest is built as ancillary services.

# William said on January 10, 2006 12:16 AM:

Andy - I'm not sure I follow you about the extensions. Why can't you do that in IE? The plug-in architecture is open, after all, look at all the spyware that's out there. If it weren't spyware what would be different from it and an extension?

As far as security goes, I don't think any browser is secure. There are a good bit of holes showing up in Firefox - at least some of the security was security through obscurity.

What we do need though is at least enough standards so that we pages 'work' irrespective of what browser you're using.

# skicow said on January 10, 2006 10:16 AM:

Bill - I use Agent as well for NNTP.

I also use FireFox, not IE, I started to use FF for the very reason that it didn't have anything to do with ActiveX....Mozilla also seems to follow the standards a little closer (I know that standards will never be 100% implemented as said by Tobin)...and yes, FF has been benefiting from security through obscurity, but that is coming to an end it seems. I also use the IE plug-in for FF for viewing pages that only work correctly in IE.

Also, I develop all my web pages to work in IE since IE still owns 85%+ of the market.

I think that IE users should be a little thankful to FF since it forced Microsoft to make IE a lot better than it was.

# William said on January 10, 2006 11:59 AM:

Skicow- I'm in 100% agreement there. MS Dropped the ball on IE Development, they needed a kick in the butt

# William said on January 10, 2006 12:11 PM:

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/6459

# AndyV said on January 10, 2006 12:18 PM:

In addition to some of the other pro-FF comments, I'll give thumbs up to the JavaScript console. It's much more helpful for debugging client-side scripts than what IE has offered. I also prefer the FF version of "Find (on this page)..." because it enters the browser as an inobtrusive toolbar at the bottom of the screen rather than a dialog flying over the document.

# Andy Lines said on January 11, 2006 7:13 AM:

I completely forgot to mention FF's DOM Inspector tool. That thing can be a lifesaver sometimes. I once had an issue while putting some CSS on one of .NET 2.0's Menu controls. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out where, in the many nested tables(boo) that make up the menu, to apply the attributes I wanted. So I opened the page in FF, fired up the Inspector, and drilled down to the correct level. Probably saved myself a couple of hours in trial and error time.

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