Monetary Worth of Your Degree

Published Tue, Apr 19 2005 15:56 | William

This is just sooooooooooooooooooooo  true that I had to post it in its entirety:

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Some of my listeners just can't stand it when I get into my "choices have consequences" mode.  So many people just don't want to believe that they are right where they are, economically, socially and in terms of their health, principally because of the cumulative effect of the choices that they have made in their lives. 

Some of the most important choices you will make involve education.  In the early years it's whether or not you're even going to go to school, and if you do go whether or not you're going to actually apply yourself.  Later on you will have to decide if you are going to continue to college ... and what your major will be.  CNN has published a survey showing starting salaries for college graduates with various four-year degrees.  At the top of the list you will find chemical engineering cashing in at  $54,000 a year.   Electrical, computer, mechanical, and aerospace engineering all pay over $50,000 a year to start.  At the bottom of the list we find liberal arts, and at the bottom of the liberal arts list we find ... what else but teaching.  Teaching comes in at $29, 733.    Here's some more of the list.

 Accounting (private): $44,564
 Management trainee: $35,811
 Teaching: $29,733
 Consulting: $49,781
 Sales: $37,130
 Accounting (public): $41,039
 Financial/Treasury analysis: $45,596
 Software design/development: $53,729
 Design/construction engineering: $47,058
 Registered nurse: $38,775

You will notice that you don't see History, English, Social Work or other such disciplines on that list.  If you make the choice to go after those majors, you are making a decision to limit your income potential pretty much throughout your life.

Now ... about the teachers.  Low salary, right?  Well what would you expect for a profession that fights accountability with its every breath?  Chemical engineer, accountant, Registered nurse ... all of these people must be accountable for what they do.  If they don't do their job well, it's off to the classified.  Teachers?  Can you spell tenure?  Can you spell NEA?  That would be the acronym for the National Education Association, the teacher's union.  Every year this union meets to discuss and implement new ways and ideas to make sure that teachers are not held accountable for their successes or failures in the classroom.  

A few more points to make about the teaching profession.  Studies have shown that generally speaking the college freshman who decide to pursue a degree in education come from the bottom of their entering class.  By this I mean that their SAT scores are at the bottom compared to the SAT scores for other entering freshmen.  Likewise, college graduates who opt for a master's degree in education generally score at the bottom of their class in the GRE, the Graduate Record Exam, the SAT-like test that goes a long way to deciding who does and who does not get into graduate school.  

Bottom line?  We have the bottom of the entering college freshman class .. and the bottom of the entering graduate school class out there teaching our children.  Then they gripe about low salaries.  They write comments on report cards like "Johnny are learning to read real good." and expect to be earning the big bucks.

Oh ... and don't forget that extended summer vacation.

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Comments

# William said on April 19, 2005 7:39 PM:

I have said it time and time again. The US school system is built by the mediocre for the mediocre. They don't want geniuses they want worker bees to feed the corporate machine. Geniuses ask questions and are creative, the US public school system for both lower and higher education is all about stifling and controling creativity. After all if you are questions you can't do your corporate masters bidding. School here did nothing but disgust me and I am so glad I left and went to school elsewhere, where I got to experience teachers who lived for their job and students who had to pass brutally hard tests just for the privilege of going to school where they wanted to go to highschool. University was way, way more competitive than that even. Some kids wait years testing every year to try and get in, some never make it. You get a degree from a Finnish Univ. or graduate from a Finnish Highschool and it means you worked your @ss off and had little to no social life. The US public school system on the other hand is a joke. My kids will never go to a US public school even if that means shipping them to live back in Finland with my siblings or my cousins. So far it just means I send them to private school. When people here tell me I'm overblowing it I just tell them to come back and let me know how they feel in 20 years when their kids are working for mine and their Indian neighbor's kids who's families put a priority on education and didn't leave it up to the State to educate our kids.

Also all degree's are not created equal, an english major cannot design a sound building but an engineer can write a poem. Liberal Arts == F#cktard because who else would spend thousands of dollars to learn how to use their own language, or dance or sing in an appealing way. If they spend that kind of money on learning something that dumb they deserve the sh!tty salary they get. Think of it as stupidity rewarding it's own.

# William said on April 19, 2005 8:49 PM:

Remember the ancient rule: Those who can do, those who can't, teach. And those who can't teach become guidance counselors...

# William said on April 20, 2005 8:36 AM:

ah...a topic near and dear to me... the state of our educational system. what a fucking disaster...

unfortunately, unless you were there in person you probably missed one of the all time greatest rants about this by yours truly. despite the fact that i dropped out of college very early on, this is one of those recurring topics that i find myself ranting about every couple of months or so...

# William said on April 20, 2005 9:07 AM:

Dropping out is a different issue, Bill Gates ain't doing so bad. But majoring in education, then getting a MS in it - you lamost know the personality type just from hearing that alone - ya know? I need to hear one of those rants

# William said on April 20, 2005 10:49 AM:

bill: i agree. my younger brother majored in history, then got a masters in education. he taught 3rd grade for 2 years. he fucking hated every minute of it. after his second year, he basically said, "fuck this....if i'm gonna hate what i do for a living, i might as well make some money." sooooo.....he went to law school, passed the bar, and now is making a great living as a slimeball divorce lawyer...

# William said on April 20, 2005 11:13 AM:

Sad but true. My wife was in the top of the class and became a teacher to make a difference. She encountered opposition from the establishment of losers and eventually quit.

It was so tragic to see her get smacked down every time she accomplished something taht was truly good for the students, not good for the governing bodies behind the system.

She's now building a business and redirecting all of her genius, creativity, and energy at doing something that truly will make a difference...in our bank account.

That's a decision with a consequence I can live with!

# William said on April 20, 2005 11:57 AM:

Phil - I had majored in Philosophy. When I got out, I couldn't get hired in anything except jobs like Bank Tellers where by and large, simply having a college degree gets you hired but you don't make squat. I ended up waiting tables for 6 months at an upscale restaurant in Pittsburgh, before realizing that my life wasn't heading anywhere. Then I got a MBA. The sad part was the Univ of Miami was not a cheap place to go, back then it was about 36k a year go there, so I had some serious student loans. My mom flipped for my undergrad education and helped me with grad school, but it was still pricey. Getting an MBA without work experience signals to the market that you are pretty much a loser who didn't know what they wanted to do. So I got a job only b/c of a family connection, but I was making 30k a year. I had a friend doing international tax law and I went back to UM to get my Master's i nAccountancy. After another year there, I got really burned out - and I had a little substance abuse problem which complicated going to school full time and working full time. I got into programming while working at my first job b/c the amount of advanced data analysis I did was nightmarish by hand. SO my old boss bumped me anoterh 10k b/c the VBA stuff I did helped out the company. From there, I took a few continuing ed courses in CS after quitting the Professional Accoutancy program.

So now I make pretty good money and have a job I love - but I also have 90k worth of debt - and a BA that is effectively worthless in monetary terms. If I could smack my younger self in the head, I surely would have. But at least I got it right.

# William said on April 20, 2005 12:36 PM:

"Also all degree's are not created equal"

That's a freakin' classic, man. Thanks for the chuckle.

# William said on April 20, 2005 12:47 PM:

Ah yes...teachers - well not teachers really but the teachers unions. My Mom was a teacher for about 15 years, she just retired last year. I used to argue with her about how easy teachers had it, and how the teachers union was destroying the school system. This was in Canada so it's not exactly the same as the US school system but it's pretty damn close. One thing that I was pi55ed about was that a teacher could take an education class during the summer - paid for by the school system - and if they passed that class they would automatically get a raise, and I'm talking about at LEAST a 5% raise...show me another job where you can guarantee yourself a raise by taking a free class!?! So teachers would take a class every summer and get an additional 5-10% raise every year on top of their yearly raise that they would get...nice. Sure a teacher starts out with low pay, but after a few years they are making a tonne of money, have killer vacation days, and it's almost impossible to get fired because of tenure.

Don't even get me started on unions...I HATE them with a passion. They had their uses but they are not needed anymore.

# William said on April 20, 2005 1:32 PM:

Skicow - I definitely agree with you. I remember that unionized friggin longshoremen were going on strike and they were making 115k a year. Pilots go on strike b/c they are getting 120k but pissed that non union guysa re getting hired. Sure, in 1910 you can hit me with the union rap. But know, we ahve an EEOC, an OSHA, and trial lawyers. Striking is total BS and unions, teachers unions in particular are having a cow over vouchers. Why? If they really provide such a good service, vouchers woudln't matter. BMW doesn't need to lobby to cause Fords to cost 50k b/c they dont' compete with each other. If teacher's unions really provided benefits, the same would hold. I went to private school all my life, so my parents paid twice, in the form of taxes anad then for tuition. How far is that? And why could my private school teach me for so much cheapr than public schools? And the last two years of HS when I went to public school, I slept through just about every subject b/c I learned it in 6th grade. Why, WHY do we have such a sh1tty educational system if we are doing things right as it is? Many factors, like parents that care more about Football than Science, but teachers unions stop good teachers from doing a lot of stuff.

I mean, why stick kids that aren't that sharp in with kids that are super students ? What good does that do anyone? And WTF is up with the whole "Gifted" program? Why is such a thing needed? If you just placed kids where they were performing, it wouldn't be necessary. IT's because parents can brag "My son/daughter is in Gifted..." Every time I hear that I want to barf even though I was in it. Gifted my a55 - studying really hard gets the job done in high school.. . but I digress.

# William said on April 20, 2005 3:56 PM:

I don't care or think about unions because as you said they did have their place in the 20's but hold very little actual value now. There was a time when one person couldn't make a difference in a business and so a union of people were needed to get things done. Now one person can make a difference, given our nation's love for lawsuits.

My woman's a teacher and it probably does hold true for unions. Teachers do get the summer "off" if you want to call it that. 2 months of UNPAID leave. She has to factor in this 2 months in her saving because she basically won't have income then. She gets a salary for the year, but it's for only those 10 months she's working. I've known many teachers to actually be doing stuff at the school during the summer and it boggles my mind that they aren't really getting paid for it. I suppose they are preparing for when they are getting paid, which in turn does add value to what they're doing.

In the US the only real thing that would bump a teacher's salary is having a master's degree. It still comes out of your own pocket, on your own time, whenever possible. Teachers really don't have that much free time or free money so I don't particularly see how that's possible for most people. If it were free, I could see how that would be an issue but in the US (or Georgia at least) it's not. Free college credit? No one's going to be giving that away. It's always paid for by someone somewhere either through grants or scholarships.

Teacher's unions aren't so much the problem as I see parents as the real threat. It seems like the majority of parents want the teachers to be doing their jobs for them. The parent's primary function is provider and trainer of their children. The children in all cases mimic the behavior of the parent much more than they'd ever mimic the behavior of even their favorite teacher. The parent has so much more control in this area, yet they're BEGGING to give this right away. Many parents simply can't handle these rights which are a part of the job description of being a parent.

The only thing validating the teachers unions is the fact that parents are trying desperately to relinquish their responsibilities as a parent. They want desperately for the village to raise their child, not understanding that it produces the idiot. The only logical reason to remove accountability in the classroom is because parents want teachers to be accountable for something they should be accountable for in the first place. It's not the teacher's responsiblity to raise their children, yet that's exactly what they're asking for in 99.9% of the cases.

Teachers often have very little support in their job. Sometimes it's the parents vs. the teachers with the administration siding with the parents. In those cases, the teachers have no advocate to speak for them. It's 2 against 1 with the most important of the 2 (administration) breathing down their neck making sure their t's are crossed and their i's dotted. It takes away from what really matters: the children. There's so much red tape beaurocratic BS in the education system I could puke. I knew this before I met my girlfriend but the stories she told me just makes me hate the whole thing even more. I don't hate people, but I can hate the complete waste of energy they produce. And believe me, they waste a lot of energy on meaningless crap.

# William said on April 20, 2005 4:19 PM:

Bill - "Gifted my a55" lol! That's funny, but I agree with you, I was asked to go in the "gifted" program in grade 7 but I didn't - mostly because my friends were all in the normal classes and I didn't know anyone in the gifted classes....so my HS career was a very boring one for me. I skipped classes pretty much everyday - especially math, how many times do we have to be shown how to add/subtract fractions?!? We spent 3+ weeks on this, I sh!t you not...hello! I got it the first time, please move on! So I would skip school and go play videogames at the local corner store.

I think Andy said it best "The US [and Canadian] school system is built by the mediocre for the mediocre. They don't want geniuses they want worker bees to feed the corporate machine."

The students who lose out are the top 10% and the bottom 10%. The top 10% don't get the chance to excel and become something greater than the norm, and the bottom 10% don't get the special help that they need and they get left behind and become a burden on sociecty *cough*welfare*cough*.

No system is perfect but there has to be something better than the current system.

# William said on April 20, 2005 4:28 PM:

Jeremy "Teachers do get the summer "off" if you want to call it that. 2 months of UNPAID leave."

Yes, it's unpaid leave - or they can choose to spread their 10 months of pay over the 12 months - but how many people with jobs other than teachers would kill to have 2 months of unpaid leave? I know I would.

I also agree with you 100% about parents - they really suck, the stories that my mom's told me about the way she gets screwed around by administration and the parents make me want to kill someone. Parents accused my Mom of deliberately picking on their child and that was the reason their child was doing so bad is school...never mind that the kid was the class loud-mouth and was failing school three years before my Mom became her teacher...

# William said on April 20, 2005 7:10 PM:

J - No doubt parents are a big problem. I've said this before, but it's a sad state of affairs indeed when you know many parents that can tell you all about the new football coach but don't knwo, care about superintendents let alone teachers. I have a friend who taught for two years and couldn't take it any mroe. She said that simply getting 8th graders to know all the presidents of the US was 'too hard' by many parents standards, and every time she gave out anything of a challenge, parents would be marching in bitching about how hard things were - especically when their kid got a b or c.

The thing with teachers is that the GOOD ones are dramatcially underpaid, but there are so many bad ones subsidized that overall, when you factor in what teachers as a whole make, it's quite a bit of money. When you factor in school boards/superintendents....whew.

Honestly though, if I have a Ph.D from MIT In math and am the dean of the Math department, I can't teach in any but a few tragic states like SC that have made an exception. I can teach PhD students at the best university in the country and ostensibly the world, but I can't teach junior high math without a teaching certificate? That's the teacher's union at work right there. That teaching certificate is BS. When I worked at a university for a while, the most idiotic people I met were in either Sociology or Education. Sure, it may be different elsewhere but where I've been and seen -it's not uncommon.

I feel for your woman bro. I mean, the crap she goes through must be nuts. I don't know how people like her do it, but God bless em.

# William said on April 21, 2005 11:16 AM:

Excellent topic, Bill.

I've had an ongoing argument among my friends (some of whom are humanities majors) that not only should people NOT major in humanities, colleges shouldn't even HAVE those degrees.

That is to say: you should only be allowed to MINOR in humanities. Your major must be some form of science, engineering, or (God forbid) business/accounting. SOMETHING with practical value.

People with "practical" degrees are smart enough to do the jobs with soft skills. But people without hard (problem-solving) skills have an uphill battle acquiring them in the marketplace vs college.

You'd be surprised (or maybe not) how personally people took this suggestion. Yet the same people refuse to look at their degree as a choice that basically affected their long-term market value, not a reflection of them as a person.

# William said on April 21, 2005 3:38 PM:

I like the tin man.

# William said on April 21, 2005 3:42 PM:

T- What tin man?

# William said on April 21, 2005 4:55 PM:

> T- What tin man?

Listen, don't oppress me and suppress what I have to say just because it isn't EXACTLY on topic. I should get points just for showing up and participating in the conversation.

Actually, I posted that sentence to make that very point. Today's teachers don't want to teach right and wrong answers. They want to reward students for participating in the process even if the process the student is participating in isn't exactly what the rest of the students are doing. They do this because they want these kids to grow up thinking that it’s normal for teachers not to be accountable for wrong decisions either. It’s all about job security.

"No Johnny, we aren't talking about the wizard of oz nor are we talking about the little retarded kid on 'A Christmas Story' who was talking to Ralphy right before he went up to see Santa. So put your Ritalin funnel away and let’s concentrate on the topic at hand, shall we?"

Accountability is definitely the issue at hand. Its the reason why religion is shunned today (as well as any other day) -- people don't want to be held accountable for their own actions, and they don't want to feel they have any obligations other than to themselves. Admit there's a God and suddenly you have to give up weekend stints to Montreal where your undercarriage gets a little "how's your father" and invest your money in something constructive instead. That was the first step to perverting our schools and removing all accountability. The next step, of course, was to standardize everything. We standardize tests. We standardize curriculum. We standardize the starched lunches we feed the kids so we can turn their brains into malleable goo. What does that mean? That means you have to bring all of the classes down to a level that every kid can understand and that means no one gets to excel.

And the whole reason for the "gifted" class isn't to boost the egos of parents out there -- although that is a very annoying side affect. The gifted class today is what special ed was in my dad. The teachers want to put the gifted students out of their site because 'gifted' students are smarter than the teachers. The average 4th grade math teacher doesn't get basic math right, let alone simple algebra, or heaven forbid trig or calc. Why would they want some 'gifted' kid in their class correcting their mistakes? Get them out of site so they can't infect the rest of the students with their non-sense -- they'll probably end up being Republicans anyway, right?

This all goes to my point. Liberals play this elitist game and say that their intellect is sooo far beyond that of the right wing nut-jobs. They use, as a point in their argument, the fact that there is a 9-1 ratio of liberals to conservatives teaching in colleges. My point is that the conservatives are out there doing work and weren't afraid to get their butts out in the real world.

These ‘elitist’ morons can’t find a job that doesn’t involve a government subsidy.

# William said on April 23, 2005 12:13 AM:

I don't know how my woman does it either, but her passion is teaching. She's great with kids and perfectly understands that it's all about them. It's the politics and parents that completely taint the experience and there's not very many people like her that have that kind of passion for something that's already stacked against her. It's ALWAYS an uphill battle and that's something I just can't comprehend but it's in her blood and who the hell am I to try to go against it.

T - "Today's teachers don't want to teach right and wrong answers."

My woman is teaching state funded pre-K right now and they have some "processes" of education with names. One of them basically states that the child can do anything they want and should be rewarded because they are making a choice. Regardless of whether or not they decide to do their work, they're rewarded simply because they are CHOOSING what they want to do. The only place I can see this as practical is in pre-K when nothing they do is really retained and it's more about schedules than actual learning. The mentality does NOT hold up in a real world scenario because there is only one type of person that actually makes those choices in their day to day lives: f-in homeless people. They're that way BECAUSE they decided they just want to do what they want, regardless of responsibility.

Personally I want my kid accountable for what they're doing the second they're born. Consequences are a HUGE part of life and to try to sugar coat that hard truth doesn't do anyone justice, let alone the kids. It's just one more thing they get to realize you lied to them about, which by default is already a pretty large list.

B - "The thing with teachers is that the GOOD ones are dramatcially underpaid, but there are so many bad ones subsidized that overall, when you factor in what teachers as a whole make, it's quite a bit of money"

That's what I like to call the absorbtion affect. The slackers of the group get a free ride because they are counted as a whole, not individually. So the person who busts their butt is no better off than the person that does nothing and gets away with it. There's many areas of life this holds true but it is only possible by large groups of people. This holds true in driving for instance. People around here CONSTANTLY aren't paying attention and doing stupid crap behind the wheel but very few consequences like accidents occur. Why? Because the group absorbs that bad behavior as if nothing ever happened and these people continually follow the same pattern. So when you cut someone off, in many instances the group as a whole absorbs the impact that would have made on an individual but in rare instances both parties don't pay attention and an accident occurs. I've seen so many near accidents literally every single day I could puke but because the group as a whole absorbs the bad behavior, nothing is ever done about it. This annoys the living piss out of me too, because it almost rewards bad behavior or at least teaches that there are very few, if any, consequences for bad behavior and that's wrong in any situation.

# William said on April 26, 2005 10:00 PM:

Gifted? I thought those kinds of courses were for kids who scored high on IQ tests?

In 2nd grade, while the rest of the kiddies were learning to count to 5 in Spanish, we got to write a graphical text library in LOGO.

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