Newsgroup Cowboys

Comments

# TrackBack said on December 30, 2004 4:32 PM:

# William said on December 30, 2004 7:09 PM:

I can garauntee that won't be allowed if you decide to come help over in our forums. Since I mod them I absolutely do not allow programmers ego on our board. I also talked to the professor who owns the board about getting you to come answer questions over there. He said whatever it takes he'd like to get you answering questions there. So if that means you need us to set up e-mail posting ability for you to the forums or whatever we can do it. Just let me know.

# William said on December 30, 2004 7:22 PM:

Andy - I just saw your emails- Yes, I'm definitely game. Where do I go next?

# William said on December 30, 2004 8:24 PM:

Ok I'll shoot you an e-mail in a few seconds.

# William said on December 30, 2004 8:32 PM:

As a fellow MVP, I concur. This behavior is totally out-of-line and should be dealt with quickly. Unfortunately, that means someone else becomes the NNTP police. :(

On an encouraging note, myITForum.com host several Windows-based mail lists, the most popular being the MS-SMS list that covers the Systems Management Server product. This community is - by far - the MODEL for how community driven efforts should be facilitated. I'm proud to be a part of it.

# William said on December 30, 2004 9:39 PM:

Bill I e-mailed you what you need to do initially I'll take over from there once you e-mail me the info I mention in my e-mail and then I'll shoot you an e-mail when I'm done so you can go browse uninhibited and see if there's anything you want to answer or just read through what's already there.

# William said on December 30, 2004 9:50 PM:

I think a33hole is more correct a term than cowboy. Cowboy seems to be the people who come on with wildly inaccurate information, yet flaunt it as if it were fact. Perhaps some of the option strict off people.

# William said on December 30, 2004 10:05 PM:

That type of behavior is too common in newgroups. The only ones that aren't like that seem to be private (Beta newsgroups) or deserted (i.e. nobody there at all, good or bad). I gave up on newsgroups a couple years ago, they just weren't worth the time and trouble.

# William said on December 30, 2004 10:48 PM:

Couldn't agree more !!! Eventually the shit will be flushed out is all I can say.

# William said on December 30, 2004 10:52 PM:

There have been newsgroup assclowns like this for years. I prefer moderated mailing lists where the assclowns can be kicked off the list if they get ouf line.

# William said on December 30, 2004 10:53 PM:

Did you get your name from the Extreme Associates Movie - AssClowns? I saw AssClowns II and it rocked!

# William said on December 31, 2004 5:44 AM:

LOL :)

Why do I have the feeling I know who this cowboy is? ;) :P (no, you silly reader, not me)

Don't let these a-holes spoil your fun, Bill, dump them in your killfile.

# William said on December 31, 2004 6:48 AM:

HEY NEWB! YOU POSTED THIS ON THE WRONG BLOG! I JUST COMMENTED ON THIS NOT 5 F'ING SECONDS AGO! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE CAFFEINE! LOOK, NOW YOU'VE GONE AND MADE ME CROSS POST, GOD! THANKS ALOT! WTF?

# William said on December 31, 2004 6:51 AM:

Ok, I'm just messing with you (cowboy post, above). Great read and I couldn't agree more. That kind of behavior is more disruptive and annoying than it could ever be worth. Yeah, so someone cross posts. Yeah, so someone asks the same question 19 times. There *might* just be a reason.

Maybe he's not getting his answers from NG-a but is getting some from NG-b even tho' it's non-topical. Or maybe he's posted once or twice in the last few weeks and is taking another last-ditch crack at it.

I know for myself at work, since we *ONLY* have access to NGs via google and they only refresh like every 9 or so hours, I post on NGs only out of desperation, but do search them frequently. I appreciate that I might find multiple answers and multiple threads relating to a topic. More information can never really be worse than not enough, ya know?

# William said on December 31, 2004 6:55 AM:

"cmd.Parameters[”@SomeValue”].Value = “Whatever”;"

Ooh, I know this game. Can I try?
for(;;){
Console.WriteLine( string.Format( "{0}", "Whatever!" );
}

:)

# William said on December 31, 2004 3:03 PM:

One dissenting voice at least to the first one.

If there are two newsgroups one for product A and one for product B, what else can you do but re-direct ?

Admittedly you should be polite about it because it's usually an honest mistake.

You should also give the newsgroup address of the correct newsgroup and try (if you know the answer *and* if you have time) to give a short answer anyway, but if you don't redirect the chances (in the case I am thinking of where product A is a back product and almost everyone has moved on to product B) are the message won't get an answer at all and the guy who posted it will just wait and wait.

Isn't it better in that case to re-direct to where he/she'll get an answer ?

# William said on December 31, 2004 3:12 PM:

Mike - no one is arguing that - I totally agree with what you said. The problem stems from the fact that NG Cowboys seldom do this. 1) The are usually rude about it - or very direct to the point of being obnoxious 2) Hardly ever answer the question.

Sure, pointing out that there's another NG is cool and helpful - but trust me on this - it tends to be one or two people per NG to take it upon themselves to point this out to people - and seldom do they answer the question and then add in - "Just for the record - the XXXX group has a lot more people that deal with these types of questions, you might get better or quicker help in the future over there on these questions"

I'm specifically talking about rudeness - and the whole NNTP Police Officer mentality. Look in the .NET Newsgroups on MSDN and search for Cross Post. You'll find about 3 people account for 90% of all of the posts where people are telling others not to cross post. Considering there's a ton of folks in those newsgroups -it seems statistically odd that such a small minority makes sooo muich noise - if it was a big deal - or if Cross Posting was such a huge problem - you'd think more than a handful of people would address it wouldn't you?

Same for the directing people elsewhere without answering the question.

I answer questions in C#, VB.NET, .NET General, Excel, Compact Framework, ADO.NET and Remoting to just name a few. If someone asks a Remoting questino unrelated to ADO.NET for instance in the ADO.NET group and I can answer it - I will - and I'll also mention that there is a remoting group but I'm not taking the tone like "Don't post that sh1t here" which is exactly what a few folks do.

Same for cross posting/ multiposting. Sure, it's worth mentining, but answer the damned question at least. Telling someone not to cross post and not answering their questino is BS. If you can't answer it - then leave it to someone who can to bitch about cross posting. Very very few people do this crap in either regard -and the ones that do are ALWAYS the same people with very very limited exceptions. I can name them off the top of my head which tells you there are but a few. Sure, you get some stragglers - but by and large - it's the same people acting like NG Cowboys.

# William said on December 31, 2004 6:51 PM:

Frans - you do ;-). Thanks for the advice - and yes, I'm taking it.

# William said on January 1, 2005 8:57 AM:

Hehe, I know who you are :-) (cowboy, that is).
A bit annoying sometimes, yes.

Andy: What forums?

# William said on January 2, 2005 12:13 PM:

I totaly disagree with you.

You characterize efforts that tend to keep the ratio signal/noise low as cowboy behavior. I dont know when you started to use USENET but this behaviors as Off-Topic, Top-Posting, OverQuoting or Mutli-Posting is totaly unacceptable in all newsgroups except MS's.

Basically the reason is that most MS employees are mostly newbies and permit that kind of behavior.This and the newbies bad manners, made me to unsubscibe from all of them.

Try to understand that NG is not only the active content you see, but they are also a searchable resource. Under your context if i want to search for connection timeouts problems where should i start? ADO.NET NG, VB.NET NG or MS-Office NG?

If someone asks the a question in wrong NG the proper action is to x-post the answer to the correct NG and set a follow-up to it. Since you do have stats, tell me how many times this happend the last year ?

# William said on January 2, 2005 12:36 PM:

Panos:

First off - I wasn't implying by any means that there is no such thing as discourteous behavior in newsgroups:

<<behaviors as Off-Topic, Top-Posting, OverQuoting or Mutli-Posting is totaly unacceptable in all newsgroups except MS's. >> Wow - that sure is a lot of area you cover. Every single one except Microsoft's huh? Hmmm, I'm a moderator on at least two sites that span many different areas in .NET - I know I don't police any of that stuff unless is clearly becomes a problem.

<<Basically the reason is that most MS employees are mostly newbies and permit that kind of behavior.This and the newbies bad manners, made me to unsubscibe from all of them. >> Oh really? How did you come upon this tidbit of Wisdom? Besides - they don't filter anything unless it's really over the top - what are they going to do if Joe Blow insists on Top Posting? Kick him off? Are you kidding me? What would that accomplish? What a total waste of time and resources it would be even trying to police stuff like that.

<<Try to understand that NG is not only the active content you see, but they are also a searchable resource. Under your context if i want to search for connection timeouts problems where should i start? ADO.NET NG, VB.NET NG or MS-Office NG? >> Umm that's kind of hard to determine based on the tiny example you use. Personally I'd stick "Connnection Timeout" in google and go from there - but that's just me. You see, since you can NOW search both the Usenet groups - as well as damn near every other forum on the internet as well as people's articles et al - I woudln't really waste my time just searching USENET - I'd take the plunge into the 21st century and use a Search Engine.

I don't know where I claim to have the Stats or what stats you are referrring to. I can tell you that IT's very common for a few people, just as I clearly posted above - to tell people to post elsewhere and do nothing else. How is that cool?

And again - although I personally agree with most of the stuff you say regardig etiquette - who in the hell are you - or me - or anyone else to TELL others how to post? That causes quite a bit of back and forth NOISE too

# William said on January 2, 2005 1:17 PM:

> I'd take the plunge into the 21st century and use a Search Engine

Iam using special queries for each topic (ie to search for Sql Server i use
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=group:microsoft.public.sqlserver.*&amp;num=30&amp;hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;newwindow=1&amp;as_scoring=d
)

> to tell people to post elsewhere and do nothing else. How is that cool?

This is cool if you dont know answer, if you do, answer it, set a follow-up and xpost it to the correct NG

> who in the hell are you - or me - or anyone else to TELL others how to post?
How many times the answer that you spend 10-30 minutes, will be usefull if it was answered in the proper NG vs in some totally unrelated one ? How many more times if you change the subject from HELP!!!!!!!!!! to something that actually describe the problem ?
If you want your efforts (or mine) to actually build a searchable and usefull resource instead of giving a fast answer to some newbie, then we *should* TELL to others how to post.

btw i did try (few years ago) to be a cowboy in c# NG, but my effords failed miserably. Bad manners did win

# William said on January 2, 2005 1:24 PM:

Panos:

Right - RIght and Right - I agree with you. But look man - all this can be accomplished without being a jerk. That's what my poitn was. If you don't help people then you're just making noise - adding crap to an already overloaded amount of information.

Look - it's the same thing with EVERY other venue in life. I'm not anti- manners - on the contrary I'm totally for them. But you can still be ill mannered in your pursuit of getting others to show some manners. I'm not a cop. When I see people blaring gangster rap witha lots of explitives in public areas whre there are kids and elderly - I wish it weren't so. But I have NO legal right to tell them to stop . None. I'm free to point out to them that I think they're wrong - but they're free to tell me to f*** off. So what? I don't have the time or resources to police that or the newsgroups or most of anything else. Sure - when it's particualarly bad - I'll say something - but if it's not - I just can't do something about it all the time. Same with NG's and hte NG Stuff is usually pretty trivial.

My point is that Cowboys are the ones bossing others around - adding little value - much less than they consume.

# William said on January 3, 2005 10:17 PM:

I could not agree with you more. As a news group lurker since the late 80's I have to admit I've been blasted more for posting than I have received useful feedback. Even when I do have useful input I seldom offer it up for fear of pissing off some primadona that disagrees with my use of capitolization or the way I indent my code. I definitely appreciate people like you bold enough to answer my questions and endure the grief those answers often generate.

It's been my experience that intellectuals "discuss" differences and problems. Any answer that teaches (i.e why is a post in the wrong category) is more productive than a condescending statement of fact. The "cowboyz" are only shooting themselves in the foot. The fewer people participating in a discussion, whether experienced or inexperienced, reduces the quality of the overall content.

Thank you for so eloquently stating something I know a lot of us agree with.

# William said on January 3, 2005 11:32 PM:

THank you for the post - I think you summed up my sentiments perfectly.

And considering my boy Panos up there who pulled the old "I don't know how long you've been using USENET" routine on me - it's nice to have someone with some years in USENET agree.

That's a sad statement when you get more crap for top posting or whatever then you do actual help.

Thanks man,

Bill

# William said on January 4, 2005 3:03 AM:

Merlin : Since you are a USENET lurker since 80's i bet you have read more than a thousand times the netiquette

ie
http://www.ezine.com/EZnetiquette.html
http://groups-beta.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=12348&topic=108
http://www.albion.com/netiquette/


but you decided that your way is much better.
Yet another sad example, another vote for laziness.

>The "cowboyz" are only shooting themselves in the foot.
I do know that you are the majority and any resistance is futile.

# William said on January 4, 2005 10:45 AM:

Panos - there's a lot wrong with your post. First, anyone that disagrees with you is Lazy - That's a big charge. Earlier you said that everyone at Microsoft that disagreed with you an 'allows' posting that you don't like is lazy or a newbie - again a pretty broad and unfair brush.

I read the netiquette - 100 different times but so what? I'll post how everyone else does in the newsgroup - it's Netiquette - not law.

Impuning people that don't agree with you isn't exactly an effective strategy for convincing people to see your side.

Again - the reason no one cares isn't b/c they're lazy - it's because these rules keep some order but they just aren't that important. Many NG's function just fine without them.

BTW - since you pulled the "I dont know when you started to use USENET " bit but throw around Lazy and sad - how many hours do you work a week?
Are you really willing to call someone that works 55 hours a week on average, Lazy, just because they don't agree with your views on how to handle breaches of Newsgroup etiquette?

# William said on January 4, 2005 11:47 AM:

Bill :
It seems that my phrase "I dont know when you started to use USENET " did offend you. My apologies.

> Impuning people that don't agree with you isn't exactly an effective strategy for convincing people to see your side.

That's the point. It's not my side. They are some rules that after I first read them, I follow them. Doesn’t matter if I agree with them or not, many people have written them for some purpose, to make the USENET a useful resource.

In moderated NGs those rules are kept, in MS NGs they just exist
http://msdn.microsoft.com/wn3/locales/help/help_en-us.htm#PostToDG

without anyone to enforce them, in fact MS employees are the first to break them (Peter Torr is one of the bright exceptions)

> that works 55 hours a week on average, Lazy
By Lazy I mean the behaviour in a community that has epicentre ME and MY NEEDS NOW and I don’t care to offer any added value to the community that help me.

Just like the following :
http://www.templetons.com/brad/emily.html
or this
Merlin : > Any answer that teaches (i.e why is a post in the wrong category) is more productive than a condescending statement of fact.

btw I think you take my objections very personal and i think we should stop posting

# William said on January 4, 2005 11:51 AM:

Panos:

no worries - I'm not taking anything personally. I just happen to think that you can contribute in a NG and that being rude isn't necessary - I don't think you disagree with that. We're essentially arguing two different points.

I appreciate your comments and seriously - it's all good. If you took anything I said to be offensive, I offer my apologies as well.

Cheers,

Bill

# William said on January 4, 2005 7:11 PM:

There's a bit of truth in nearly every argument; the challenge is to be able to see the whole without getting stuck in any specific viewpoint. Its true that many people postings on USENET are rude, offensive, overbearing, etc -- e.g. "cowboy behavior". Its also true that there's a place for newsgroups to be self-policing to keep the noise level under control.

The key to finding the right balance is being aware: (a) aware that whomever posted is a human being and is entitled to a certain level of respect; (b) aware that if everyone is allowed to post anything without any "corrective feedback", a newsgroup can devolve into chaos.

It seems like most of the nastiness occurs because people forget about (a) -- something about the indirectness of electronic communication brings out the mean spirited side of folks, and they say things they might never say to a stranger's face.
That is really about personal maturity, ultimately, I think.

# William said on January 4, 2005 7:54 PM:

Les- I couldn't agree with you more. It doesn't have to be one way or another - it's just that both sides should be cool about it. My problem is that newbie mistakes are usually just that - newbie mistakes and they self-remedy quickly especially if people are ccool about it. But there are some Cowboys out there - self-proclaimed NG cops that piss newbies off and turn them off to the whole NG thing and in the process, get on my nerves - hence my post.

You can tell people the correct way to do things politely - and no one gets pissed. But from my observations - Cowboys do more to damage the quality of the newsgroups than all the newbieness combined. Granted this fluctuates and there's tons of times I want to Yell - RTFM but I don't. And If I can restrain myself - it must not be that hard to do b/c I'm probably the most impatient Type A personality on the east coast.

# William said on January 5, 2005 7:55 PM:

And I think that's a critical point: self-discipline, restraint, whatever you want to call it -- has gotten a bad name in our culture these days it seems. We think that self-expression is dumping our frustration or irritation on anyone who gets in our way. We think that our right to our opinion is a justification for sounding off on every topic, and so forth. This is nothing more than self-indulgence, and what is supposed to be an adolescent phase that passes with time is becoming institutionalized as an acceptable behavior pattern for adults: e.g. "cowboys".

You're right to speak up and push back a bit...

Les

# William said on January 7, 2005 7:41 PM:

Thanks Les ;-)