"Welcome to Reality" --- A Buttmunch's Perspective on Casey

Published Fri, May 14 2004 0:54 | William

I really should be in bed right now, but I just had to start playing with System.XML 2.0.  As I flipped through my feedback section, it looked like just about everyone was on Casey's side on this one but there was too much clear thinking going on I guess.  I shouldn't call names, but this was just soooo stupid that I just have to respond.

“Welcome to reality. “
<WGR>  Which is what exactly?  That some self-righteous a-hole was lecturing Casey about the lack of 'professionalism' in his personal site?  Or that another person without a clue got caught up on some real trivia?  I'm not sure exactly which is 'reality' but please, enlighten me.
You can talk all day about the way things *should* work, or about the way you *want* things to work, but the cold hard facts of life are that people will make assumptions about you by looking at your web site.
<WGR>  Wow, another really profound point.  I never said that wasn't the case.  My point is that A FEW people came to the WRONG assumption based on his site.  For instance, if he's really such a loose cannon (I think the exact phrase was “a sexual harassment suit waiting to happen“) why is it that he has such good references from everywhere he worked?  But I guess I need to spell it out.  Casey has some stuff on his site that's extremely funny but that some would find offensive.  He's also got a whole lot more stuff that's testimony to his professional skills.  Now, let's address the 'offensive' stuff.   I have yet to work at a company where I haven't heard Water Cooler stuff (ie On Company Property) where I haven't heard a fair amount of profanity, sexual talk, and in some instances, racially insensitive stuff.  I've also heard similar comments when shopping, walking around etc.  I doubt there's a company in the US wherein a female with a body like Brittney Spears could walk down the hallway and not have someone (probably more than one) make some comments.  You couldn't stop it if you wanted to.  So getting so sanctimonious about something that's sooooo common, so pervasive is pure BS and you know it.  BTW, it works both ways too and females are hardly guilt free.

"descrimination based on personal web content"  - Yeah...you do that..Please, let me go with you when you present the case to a lawyer. I want to record that little exchange for America's Funniest Videos.
<WGR>  Funny you mention this.  First of all, you can sue anyone for just about anything.  Second, if you can show that anything was used in a legally discriminatory manner, you have a case and there are lawyers that will take it.  There are more than a few cases out there where people's web sight showed that there were members of a protected minority  by virtue of having their picture on it where people have succesfully litigated based on alleged discrimination.  To that end, anything in writing from a company, precisely some of the things that have been written to  him, could easily end up as exhibit A.  There are laywers who are suing fast food places for causing obesity but no one would possibly take a frivlous employment case.  Let me be really clear on this.  If he did  pursue such a claim it would be silly.  Nonetheless, the fact that people WROTE HIM, vs a call on the phone or vs saying nothing, shows TERRIBLE judgement on their part, hence my point.  They could just as easily claimed the budget dried up or that the project died and there'd be no written anything to give a frivolous claim any traction.  I know you are all about “Reality“ and the like, but our legal system not only allows, but encourages such stuff.  And even getting a case tossed out of court costs some cash.  So why take the risk writing anything down?  Why say anything when you could say nothing?  Hardly a sign of good judgement.  And since you are obviously a legal scholar, explain how http://www.stellaawards.com/ These lawsuits were ever litigated?

The guy is obviously a bright, talented developer.

<WGR>  you forgot “With a proven track record and documentation of his abilities“ something all too rare these days.  If you read through my posts, it was this point exactly.  There's a cost to hiring losers and “Reality“ is that a lot of people fluff (see Lie ) their resumes.  To write someone off with proven talent just b/c his sight wouldn't be warmly received by Emily's list is shortsighter to say the least.

He also frequently comes across as a boor.

<WGR>  Who doesn't? 

Which is fine of course, but he should fully expect that some companies will see this and and choose not use him.

<WGR>  Another restatement of the painfully obvious that has nothing to do with anything I've said. 

At 28 years old, it's time that he learn the difference between a professional and personal life.

<WGR>  Do you really think he doesn't know the difference?  Show me ONE documented instance where he's been reprimanded, fired or had anything negative happen to him based on his behavior on the job.  For you to allege he doesn't know the difference with NO substantiation says quite a bit. 

Wanna post shots of your girlfriend's butt?

<WGR>  Yes, I hope he keeps doing it, TS is the BOMB

Wanna have a lengthy discourse on topics that some people find offensive?

<WGR>  Yes, I love such things, so does Casey, that's why B & B rocks.

Then go post it on your personal web site.

<WGR>  IT IS HIS PERSONAL WEBSITE

And *MOST* importantly, don't give that personal website as a reference when you are looking for clients.

<WGR> Oh, so that's the problem.  He can't separate Personal and Professional life according to you.  He should post such things on his personal web site (which it is) yet the fact that he mentions his “personal” web site is the problem?  If it's a personal web site, then how can you claim he doesn't know the difference?  Again totally unrelated to any point I was making.  I was basically contending that anyone who wouldn't hire him b/c of anything on B & B is shortsighted (see dumbass).  People hire all kinds of f**** a-holes every day.  Developers like him are few and far between and like it or not, you have to admit he's on the top of the food chain as far as development goes (and girlfriends with great figures goes but that's another story)..  Look how many of his peers defend him!  If he's such a a55much then why are so many people so quick to defend him?  See the fact of the matter (REALITY as you put it) is that you don't know what you get when you hire most people. That's why most places have trial periods.  That's why you can fire people in most states within  90 days with impunity.  And certainly you aren't naive enough to think that most of the harassment cases and problem employees have web sites or advertise their pathology or acknowledge they are screw ups or any such thing. 

Admit it, those emails he got were stupid; stupid for many reasons.  And Microsoft deemed him worthy of MVP recognition in TWO categories, lesser companies should follow their lead.

Oh yeah, I didn't catch your name or your link.  Would you be kind enough to show me the URL of  your stellar example of professionalism?

Comments

# William said on May 14, 2004 1:02 AM:

Dude, why are you giving this douche bag any ink? www.brains-n-brawn.com Rules!

# William said on May 14, 2004 8:18 AM:


This is just too funny...

It's amazing that you, and your sycophants, can't seem to grasp the basic concept that people hire people for more than just the skills mentioned in the want ad.

People look for maturity, professionalism and judgement in addition to good development skills. If you're going to be interfacing with clients, then your maturity and judgement is going to be considered just as much as your development skills.

I can't even believe I have to explain this. Clearly, Casey lost a potential job or gig because he didn't understand it. Now perhaps he does. Oh sure...you can rant about "the system" or "the man" or whatever euphemism you wan't to apply, but unless you don't need an employer or clients then you play by their rules.

...and their rules, for those that aren't listening, is that people will frequently look at your personal life to gauge what type of person you are. If they find something they don't like, then you might get passed over.

And that's reality. Sorry if it offends you.

# William said on May 14, 2004 9:17 AM:

<<It's amazing that you, and your sycophants, can't seem to grasp the basic concept that people hire people for more than just the skills mentioned in the want ad. >> I never said they didn't. I guess I still need to say it again. It's absolutely their right to hire/not hire whoever they want. It's also shortsighted. That's my point. Who are my sycophants btw? I can't tell if you are talking to me or Casey here from the context of your previous posts and this one.

<<People look for maturity, professionalism and judgement in addition to good development skills. If you're going to be interfacing with clients, then your maturity and judgement is going to be considered just as much as your development skills. >> Again, show me an example where he's ever had a lapse of judgement at work or caused ANY negative issue for a company that's employed him. You're implicitly stating that what he writes at B&B has anything to do with his behavior at work and It doesn't. Again, my point is that if you are going to judge "judgement, professionalism " blah blah blah based on a few flippant comments on a web site particularly in light of the quality of the content there, you're being shortsighted (which is my euphamism for DumbA55 and the only one I use. Where do i reference the man or any such stuff? Nowhere!

And what about my contention that sending out emails to people explaining why you didn't hire them is 'bad judgement'? One attorney I work with looked at their comments and commented that it was 'really not smart' to write someone with that information, particularly with all the ambulance chasers out there.

Actually, you didn't respond to any one of my points and you mischaracterize the ones I made. To that end, how could I get offended? There are certainly intelligent arguments one could make counter to my points, you just haven't posited any.

# William said on May 14, 2004 9:22 AM:

Bill, I think this dude is just jealous b/c he obviously has no skills, no balls (or at least not enough to put down his name) and probably no girls. He's probably one of the losers they'll settle on instead of KC and he's pissed b/c he can't get first billing.

# William said on May 14, 2004 9:39 AM:



"Who are my sycophants btw?"

Sorry, singular. Sycophant. But it looks G. Amato is trying out for the fan club.

" Again, show me an example where he's ever had a lapse of judgement at work or caused ANY negative issue for a company that's employed him."

That's not the point. The point is that if you direct potential employers to a website that they might find offensive, then you run the risk that they will find you lacking judgement.

"based on a few flippant comments on a web site particularly in light of the quality of the content there, you're being shortsighted"

See, I don't really disagree there. My entire point has been that just don't be shocked or upset when a potential employer or client has shortsighted. Most of the people making hiring decisions aren't techies and wouldn't understand anything Casey says anyway. But they sure as hell understand a girls butt on his web site, particularly after he directed them there.

"And what about my contention that sending out emails to people explaining why you didn't hire them is 'bad judgement'?"

How is that pertinent, anyway? Let's say it was bad judgement on their part...So? How does that relate to Casey losing an opportunity based on his web site? Lots of people make bad judgement calls? Do you really want to chronicle each one here?

Bottom line: Everyone has the freedom to post whatever they want on their websites. But, if you are going to direct clients to your web site, then having anything that might be viewed as offensive or questionable is really not a terribly bright thing to do if you are needing clients. If you don't need clients, or have such high demands then hey, whatever.....



# William said on May 14, 2004 10:39 AM:

It doesn't take a sycophant to realize you are wrong, but it's a cool title. If I get some time, I'll start a Casey's Sycophant Club. I remember being at PDC in San Fran a month ago when he was giving his speech, everyone was really impressed so I know there'd be quite a few members. Thanks for the idea

From start to finish, I was criticizing their hypocrisy and short sightedness as illustrated in the two emails that Casey references. Yes, i do see some irony in someone criticizing his judgement when there's is ostensibly worse,.

<<That's not the point. The point is that if you direct potential employers to a website that they might find offensive, then you run the risk that they will find you lacking judgement. >> Where did I ever argue anything to the contrary. I think I"ve acknowledged this, I just said it's shortsighted. The same couild be said for things they come across incidentally that you didn't direct them to. What about all that tripe you were spewing about "he should do it on a 'personal' web site. It is a personal web site. The fact that he pointed them to it doesn't make it not exist. And the fact that he says stuff on his web site that is said in every company every day and that someone is too dumb to look past it is Stupid.


<<My entire point has been that just don't be shocked or upset when a potential employer or client has shortsighted. Most of the people making hiring decisions aren't techies and wouldn't understand anything Casey says anyway>> Who's shocked or upset, I just think they're stupid for doing so.

<<My entire point has been that just don't be shocked or upset when a potential employer or client has shortsighted. Most of the people making hiring decisions aren't techies and wouldn't understand anything Casey says anyway>> Simple. Their contention is that he has bad judgement. Mine is that he doesn't. If bad judgement is a metric at their company, then they fall quite short but WRITING stuff that could easily be used against them. You also made a point earlier that there was nothing dumb about there emails from a legal perspective..remember America's Funniest Home Videos? Well, I'm saying that this is prime fodder for frivolous law suits and stupid.

<<Bottom line: Everyone has the freedom to post whatever they want on their websites. But, if you are going to direct clients to your web site, then having anything that might be viewed as offensive or questionable is really not a terribly bright thing to do if you are needing clients. If you don't need clients, or have such high demands then hey, whatever..... >> Are we in the same conversation? The Bottom line is that what they did under the sanctimonious guise of 'good judgement' and professionalism is stupid, exhibits bad judgement and isn't very professional. And all my point has been is that they are stupid for using this as a metric and even dumber for acknowledging it. This whole stupid argument has been you dancing around things I never said or implied and backing away from what you did say, which from the looks of things would make you a prime candidate at the HR offices he referenced.

# TrackBack said on May 14, 2004 10:59 AM:

fun fun fun

# William said on May 14, 2004 11:11 AM:


Tripe that I was spewing? It's so refreshing to see someone as open-minded as you when dealing with those that have an opposing viewpoint. First, I'm a "buttmunch" and now "I'm spewing tripe." I bet you're a lot of fun to have in design meetings.

We disagree. The fact that you get so very emotional, angry and resort to name calling over a disagreement inclines me to believe that I'm just wasting my time trying to explain to you.

Or said another way:

"When arguing with fools, don't answer their foolish arguments,or you will become as foolish as they are."



# William said on May 14, 2004 11:54 AM:

Oh, please accept my apologies. I didn't realize Buttmunch was that harsh of a word and to be honest, I thought it was kind of funny and fitting at the same time without being too serious. It's similarly refreshing to see someone get so sensitive over something so trivial. But you obvsiously aren't going to acknowledge anything that I was discussing. As far as your final statement goes, I have to wonder, don't you have anything original to come back with? That quote was old was old school when I was in 5th grade, right along with Welcome to reality and Get a life. Hopefully you have a bit more creativity in design meetings...

# William said on May 14, 2004 12:28 PM:

Ok so Not Me say I develop a porn site in php on a contract to the company that wants a porn site. Three months later I get a job offer to do Php development and I point them to that web site and say "I developed this, here is an example of my work.". They get offended and say we aren't hiring you because you developed a porn site. That's descrimination based on their personal moral ideals.

Casey points people to his site for examples of his work, specifically the articles and site layout/design. To desrimate against him for the content of the blog on that domain is retarded.

No, I am not shocked that some HR person was stupid enough to do that. What I am surprised at, is that they were dumb enough to put it in writing. If you think that is a lawsuit that can't be prosecuted clearly you have never worked in a corporate environment where stupid lawsuits are the norm. IE the entire west coast. And they win.

Descrimination is against the law, it's clearly against the law to descriminate against people for what they do in their free time. Gays have proved this time and time again. Descriminate against them for something they do in their free time and the ACLU will be more than happy to sue you for everything you have.

It is not against the law to show your free time projects as proof of concept when applying for a job. I do it all the time, in my spare time I write programs for special needs children and their education. So if on my site I post a picture of a special needs child it offends somebody and the don't give me a job because of that, that is stupid and if you want to press it it's also illegal. In the realm of free speach their is no difference between a picture of a special needs kid and a picture of TS's lovely backside. They are both content on a blog pointed to as proof of concept.

I hate arguing on the internet because it's just dumb but when you say things like welcome to reality maybe you need to wake up and smell what you are shoveling. Just because it's reality doesn't make it wrong and stupid to descriminate like that.

The Berg incedent was pretty gruesome reality but it was still wrong to chop off his head. Just because something is reality doesn't mean we need to be quiet about it and say "oh well it's reality so just deal with it" go tell that to Nick Berg's parents and see what kind of reception you get. The inceddent's are not similar in severity I am just iterating a point.

We are speaking out against descrimination against a friend. I don't give a flying fuck if it's reality or not, I won't let it go unchallened, or remain silent while someone maligns a friend.

# William said on May 14, 2004 1:15 PM:

Well said Andy, and I couldn't agree with you more.

It's funny how this guy launched into all of this and doesn't once address my original points. It's not that they aren't allowed to discriminate or judge, it's just that if they do, their being foolish. The dude gets all mad, calls everyone here sycophants, then says it's just me, but I call him a Buttmunch and his feelings get hurt. Then he starts whole "Reality" stuff. I'm really glad the world has him to tell us how it really is. And he's so into reality that he repeatedley misstatements my arguments, doesn't answer anything rebutting his nonsense and takes it back to the old school with a quote that wasn't nearly as funny or profound as he thinks, even when it wasn't cliche.

Since he can't speak to one point anyone made, it shows how vacuous his whole arguement is...hope vacuous doesn't hurt MeToos tender little feelings.

Anyway, I'm glad you posted, you make a lot of sense and MeToo was getting really boring

# William said on May 14, 2004 1:48 PM:


"Ok so Not Me say I develop a porn site in php on a contract to the company that wants a porn site. Three months later I get a job offer to do Php development and I point them to that web site and say "I developed this, here is an example of my work.". They get offended and say we aren't hiring you because you developed a porn site. That's descrimination based on their personal moral ideals. "

If I'm not mistaken, the reason given in the email to Casey is that this job had something to do with interfacing with their clients. From what I read, that's what they were concerned about. Maybe they were concerned that Casey might be sending pics of his girlfriend's ass to their clients. I dunno, but I don't think it was that they were personally bothered by his choice of pics.

So I think it boils down to they had questions about his professionalism, not his taste in photos or his viewpoints. Whether or not their concerns are valid has been done to death, so there is no point in arguing that.

I'm a consultant myself and a handful of my clients are stuffy Fortune 500 companies. I can absolutely guarantee you that many of them hire soley on perceived professionalism. I could be a raging alcholic who abuses his wife and molests little children, but as long as they don't see that and I appear to fit within their mold then I get the job.

Does the suit and tie I wear make me a better developer? Of course not, but I wear it because if I don't then that would set little alarm bells off in their tiny little HR heads. And that might cost me a gig. So, it's a small price to pay. I got a family to feed and career to tend to, so I present myself according to what they want to see.

# William said on May 14, 2004 2:04 PM:

Yes, this is quite simple and you are absolutely right. The whole point of all of this was that the criteria were silly. I'll also bet that you don't get written emails describing why they didn't choose you, they just politely bow out.

That's what annoyed me about MeToo. It's pretty clear the discussion was centered around the validity of their concerns. You see it, and so did everyone else but MeToo. There was another email that didn't reference interacting with clients, but that's not really the point. Casey even points out that later in life, he may need to change but for now, being that he's without wife and child, all he has to do is feed Casey and KittyKitty so it's all good. And to be honest, and Fortune 500 company or other company that doesn't hire him really needs to look over to the right hand side of his web site to see why that's a poor decision.

Thank Mike.

# William said on May 14, 2004 2:46 PM:

How many of you guys are doing this on "company time?" :) Looks like a lot of effort/time, but (I may be biased) for a good cause! I commend you, Bill & Andy & anyone else that has added anything in support of Casey.

And I never imagined my butt would cause such controversy! I kinda like it. :)

I also wanted to add to a point that Bill made... Casey is actually on a contract right now for which he was hired because he was noticed at his impressive presentation in SanFrancisco. The guy was present and approached him afterward. He must not have seen his "offensive" website, but it must have been enough that he knew talent when he encountered it!

# William said on May 14, 2004 3:14 PM:

Hi TS. Nope not on company time here, speaking for myself anyway. :) I've been at home during this whole thing on temp leave helping with a friends funeral. So I've had plenty of time to post. That being said if we ever need small device work done Casey will be the first person I recommend for the job, hands down.

# William said on May 14, 2004 4:54 PM:

TS, thanks for pointing that out, seriously. I mean, getting a speaking gig at MDC isn't little league. Getting TWO MS MVP awards isn't little league either. MeToo would have everyone believe it's b/c he's got a bunch of uncritical adoring 'sycophants' like everyone here. He's all about explaining why Casey got shot down two whole times but has NO (0) answers as to why he gets hired all the time. Before he went to Milwaukee, my company wanted to hire him based solely on the stuff at B & B because it was undeniable his game is strong. It really sucked when we found out that he was already hired.

There's not a person that saw him speak at MDC that wouldn't recommend him for a job and that Buttmunch MeToo seems to get lost on all the positives.

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