I think that the US and UK Government need to make this practise unuseable by taxing any company that off shores jobs, in the long run it has to be damaging to the countries economy and also very bad for the customer. Move offshore by all means BUT you will pay the price is how the governments should deal with it and thereby make it so heavily taxed that it becomes cheaper to keep the jobs in the country where the work originates.

Unconscionable. Yet, predictable. I wonder how many companies will cancel their PSS agreements as a result of this?

Cripes! Not good. Not good at all, particularly for an enterprise app.

Great, just great! I've dealt with a number of other companies doing the same thing, such as AT&T with bad results. It's bad enough they can't speak English, but don't insult my intelligence by telling my "my name is "Pete", "Brad", or any other non-Indian name!

I too do not like the whole outsourcing to overseas issue as well. Without getting into the political issues, and economic issues, the end result is as you have mentioned already and that is a lack of expertise on the other end of the phone. However I would also like to point out that this is a TYPICAL result of when I call PSS anyway. There has only been ONE TIME that I have called PSS, and they have actually resolved the issue before I have done it for them. By my standards, that is a poor record. Even the Chicago Bears win a few now and then.

I truly feel that this is going to take a Microsoft element that already needs substantial improvement, and make it much worse. That's before any possible language barriers as well (I would like to point out that it happens here in the US as well, but I fear it will happen more outside the US).

Microsoft has always had a tiered support architecture, but it's not as effective as I would like to see it. I get far better support via MyITForum, and other 3rd party resources than PSS. However I pay PSS simply for the out of the box hotfixes. I'm hoping that someday MS will take their support a little more serisously, and pay the proper $$ that it takes to staff the appropriate talent. I would be happy to pay a little more for PSS if I was able to get that kind of support.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm a Microsoft Consultant that is paid to support them with regards to Systems Management. Part of my job is to encourage the use of Premier Support. How can I sell this to them now, with Microsoft taking actions like this? WAKE UP BILL, YOU'RE SHOOTING YOURSELF IN YOUR FOOT!!!!!!

I see too many things wrong with this. All have already been mentioned, however here goes it.
1st being my company will not see any savings in costs due to the exportation of jobs.
2nd the level of support we are paying for does not equal.
3rd American support techs now without jobs
4th I can never understand the folks from india... even the ones trained for language.

This is all leading up to the exodus of many talented people in the IT field. I'm not sure of other parts of the country, but the Pacific Northwest pay scale is digressing to the Banglore pay scale (or getting close to it) Its not at all uncommon for companies to look for System admins with 10 years experience in everything from SMS, Exchange, AD, AV to firewalls and will only pay 40K (and sad but true getting someone to fill it)

I am now currently making less than I ever have since moving over to the IT industry 10 years ago, and the off shore movement is in large part to blame.

Not only is outsourcing bad for the economy it causes a dependency on other countries. There are less and less Grads going into IT as its not that attractive of an option any longer. Should the talent leave the field and the country becomes dependent on other nations for IT support, these Nations will indeed raise the rates to do business. (see OPEC and the Texas Oklahoma oil history as an example.)

For companies like MS this is about the now, with no thought of the future.

I for one am right on the verge of leaving this field. As I go through the want ads, its clear an Auto Mechanic now makes more than I do. This isn't to belittle that field, but I can step into that, however a Mechanic could not hope to step into what I do......without bringing everything down. Sort of like my last support call answered in India.


Tim Brennan

As a "wanna be" IT business owner I'm kinda confused by the whole outsourcing concept. On the one hand you have the people that vote to keep the administration in place that passes the kind of laws which benefit companies for outsourcing overseas. Yet some of these same people are the ones losing their jobs. ????

On the other hand you have to respect the mindset of a business owner that says "hmm, I can actually benefit from outsourcing. Not to mention possible expansion in the overseas market. Again, hmm. $$$$$".

The "wanna be business owner" side of me says " more money, more money, more money". The side of me that will never figure out the political system in this country or the mindset of the people and why they vote the way they do, says to himself "we in the IT field are screwed" and wonders what the IT field will be like in the next 4 fours.

Sad part is that I made it to a face-to-face interview with MS for an SMS position and didn't get it. Now aint that some crap!!!!

Well it worked so well for AMD :)

HaaaH!! Typical mindset of the average voter, blame the current administration for what happened 10 years ago. GW Sr, Bubba and big ears debated NAFTA and outsourcing 12 years ago. Bubba signed it into law, those that voted Bubba are to blame for this. The question is, how much more money does Bill need??

Sadly when I call PSS I usually get some volt contracter who doesnt know the product too well either. I can search the Knowledge Base on my own damnit.

Stupid Microsoft.

that is horrid.

Off shoring should have very very serious consequences. It's common sense in the long run it will hurt the contry and only fill hte pockets of a few.

NAFTA = North American Free Trade Agreement. Where in North America is India? NAFTA was setup as a free trade agreement between the US, Canada, and Mexico. (Not posting political opinion on the Bush's or Clinton, just stating fact)

The reason that it's going to India is because business owners can get away with paying their people $20US a day (I know not nessarily literally, but not that far away from it). It is substantialy different than what we would pay someone here in the US for the same job. It is good business to keep your costs down as far as possible. Where they are loosing sight is that quality is suffering for it. At some point, unfortuneatly not now, they will realize that they need to balance cost for quality. It's a big pendilum, and the swing is over India right now. When their profits suffer for the outsourcing, they will bring it back home. Not much solace for those who have, and will loose their jobs.

I hate this crap just as much as the next person but...

*steps on soapbox*

What right does any one country have to tell a multinational corporation which countries they can/can't hire workers in. Can you imagine how irate the US would be if, for example, India passed a law that companies wishing to do business in India couldn't hire US labor (not such a good law if the tables were turned, eh?) While I hate to see US jobs going overseas, the US, or any other country for that matter, has no right to be dictating to multinational corporations where they can/cannot hire.

If you really want to end this problem, don't just gripe about outsourcing in general. Make legitmate complaints about real problems. When you call PSS, if you get an engineer you can barely understand, complain. If the quality of support isn't what you expect, complain. Complain about specifics, not generalities. The only way we're going to stop this trend is to make corporations realize that in the long run its hurting their relations with their customers. The "bottom line" is called that for a reason - ultimately the dollars/yen/pounds/euros/etc. drive the business.

IMHO, companies should be hiring support staff local to each area they support. Someone in Spain shouldn't have to become a fluent English speaker to get support from a US call center, nor should someone in Germany have to deal with French support, etc. For example, I work for a multinational company, but our internal helpdesk is spread throughout the world, and with the exception of offices too small to hire onsite IT staff (sattelite offices < 50 people for example), if you call from Madrid, you'll get a tech in Madrid, same goes for Germany, France, Australia, etc. Even English speaking countries (such as UK, US, Canada, and Australia) have support within that country. This is how it should be for any call centers for large corporations

Now that having been said, I think the US, and other countries as well (don't know how much this applies outside the US) should NEVER be using outsourced labor to support their local governments. I've heard stories of various state/local govenrments outsourcing various call centers and data processing, and very few things piss me off more than my tax dollars being shipped overseas.

*steps off soapbox*

My point is, target your complaints to specific issues, not outsorucing in general. You have to make compaines see how this hurts their business, otherwise, the "almighty dollar" will make their decisions for them. As for legal solutions, start with preventing your local governments from outsourcing. What kind of example does it set for businesses if the governments themselves are outsourcing?

Hmmm, it's getting to the point where we will be fighting over all the jobs left....and none of them will be in IT!

Wondering where the jobs went?? 100 SMS openings!

http://www.jobsahead.com/search/jobdesc.html?id=791519;from=advance

So that's why when I called PSS today the guy had no clue what I was talking about. I spent two hours on the phone with him just trying things I had already tried. Not good. At least now I know to have the call escalated first thing.

There is no such entity named Premier Support Services that I know of.

There is a Premier Support group, but that is not the same as PSS.

PSS = Product Support Services.

I had heard this before but didn't realize the extent of how many PSS jobs were moved to India. As a former PSS engineer (perf team), and as someone that has been laid off a couple times during the "economic downturn", I can see this from several angles and they are all BAD. It's bad for MS employees, it's bad for MS customers, it's bad for MS in general. About the only thing it's good for is the folks in India who have VERY high (relative to the average wage in India)paying jobs now. This trend to outsource customer service to India is disturbing. My mortgage company and my bank both have outsourced their call centers to India. Ever called AOL customer service? India. EDS is beginning to outsource support for some of their products to India.

If customers become vocal on this issue and begin to protest and complain about this trend, we may be able to reverse this and bring those jobs back to the US.

I am a current MS FTE (Full Time Employee - Blue Badge) within PSS and have been with the company several years. I still love my job and the people I work with but since the first time in coming to the company years ago I am thinking of leaving.

You are correct. India will be taking Premier calls beginning the turn of the year. They have been taking some Pro calls over the last 9 months.

We are not back-filling MS FTE's as they leave PSS. These positions are being re-filled with contractors (1 yr max contract) in order to keep up with the call volumes until India takes over.

Eventually India will handle all of the Professional ($245/incident) and most of the Premier calls leaving only a small contigent of MS FTE's to fill Mentoring and Escalation roles and answer some of the premier calls that cannot be outsourced (Military and Software Assurance contracts).

As a result we (PSS FTE's) are being highly encouraged to find other opportunities in the company. Naturally the brain-drain has been tremendous and many good folks have left PSS before their time. With those people, departs years of experience in handling the toughest of customer's problems. For some reason MS Corp Mgmt thinks this can be easily replaced.

This policy will not change until MS sees it affecting Sales and the bottom line. Unfortunately, you the customer, are being handed the cost of these savings and IMHO it does not bode well for the company long-term. Please keep in mind I am a stockholder and I recall that no other company (Big Blue) has regained marketshare once it has been lost.

A view from the inside.....

From Tim's Job Posting for 100 SMS Jobs (Are there that many SMS openings currently in the whole US?)

About the company:
Our name sums us up best. In Hindi (The Indian national language), the word Harjai denotes Omnipresence. While we, a seven-year old company, do not try to over reach ourselves, it is our constant endeavour to deliver quality work in our areas of expertise. And that comprises software consultancy and IT recruitment services.

Cut-backs, offshoring, and PSS at Mini-Microsoft

I'm a Prem customer and close pal of a PSS worker so have an interesting view of things. Effectively the guys have all been given notice that the jobs are offshoring in the next couple of years and any leavers are not being replaced. However we have complained as we didn't sign up for a $$$$$$$ contract to speak to third parties. When these guys are all offshore then we will be coming back to the negotiating table to reclaim our share of the savings that have been made on the Premier-contracts. As someone points out the off-shore pendulum swings both ways - if it costs MSFT a few cents then thats exactly what we will be stumping up.

The Large businesses are distroying the will and desire for greater technical advancement in the USA. Many young people are studing for careers in technology but the jobs for qualified people are being sent overseas. The bankrupcy is perdicted for the year 2022. It may come sooner if more companys move overseas.

guys! i wont agree that all your concerns are about the quality of SMS support from india...it isnt something we cannot master or provide higher level of quality...lets all understand that for a technical query l2 or l3 if you know the right answer no matter how you speak you can still solve the problem...about the wages..no comments..

About the above post - the question is not about l2 or l3 technical queries - I am complaining because me and my co-workers are losing our jobs to vastly less competent people in India for just one reason - THEY ARE CHEAP! And as for the company itself - Microsoft will regret this in the long run. Right now they are just taking advantage of their monopoly to impose substandard support on customers but as soon as options become available they will realize their mistake (too bad the execs will have run off with their fat paychecks and bonuses by then).

I manage the SMS infrastructure for a fortune 100 company and I used to call PSS often and was always extremely satisfied with the support I got. I had actually gotten to know many of the SMS support engineers - these were very competent, technically sound people who have been doing this for years. Now I get some punk kid in India who has never even done any live SMS implementations telling me what to do - how low can you go Microsoft? Quite frankly I have stopped calling PSS now and get by on my own. I have also recommended my management to downsize/terminate our Premier support contract for this very reason. Will that matter to Mr. Ballmer and his greedy henchmen - probably not but at least it's a start and hopefully more will follow.

Man am I vexed. I just burnt through a Microsoft PSS case (that's the premium support services you pay money for) trying to get some help with a BadImageFormatException I was having... only to be brushed off 4 days later with a statement to the effect of: "... we can't help you because it includes an open source component" Great. WHY THE HECK DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THIS 4 DAYS AGO WHEN I SENT YOU A SAMPLE PROJECT WITH CODE SHOWING THE ISSUE... before I spent all the time trying to communicate with you about the problem I am having. And to boot, it was really difficult speaking with the person, who I can only assume works in Banglore, as her extremely strong accent made me feel as if she was being confrontational the entire time. To be fair, the exception IS occuring in the open source component... but at the result of including a Microsoft IE OCX control. I can add other user controls without incident. I can't understand what the problem is and was going to MS PSS for help, under direction by a Canadian Microsoft employee who wasn't able to help me. Microsoft doesn't offer .NET libraries for MMC 2.0 in .NET 1.1 (which will continue to reside on SBS for some time yet), and I was forced to use the open source components. At this point, it is clear that Microsoft isn't able to help me on this issue. The PSS person said something about her manager telling her to delete all of my sample code as the open source piece hasn't been passed through "legal". So I gather I can't talk to any of the MS friends I have either about this. *sigh* Hopefully someone out there in blog land can help me out. I have a sample project that shows the exception. If you are running VS.NET 2003 with C++ and C# installed you should be able to unzip this into the c:\code dir and build right away. The issue I am having is trying to add the Microsoft IE control (AxWebBrowser) to a FormsNode acting as a RootNode in the open source MMCLib2 library. When you click on the snapin, it causes a "BadImageFormatException" for the IE control. Steps to Repo the Exception: Run in Debug (F5). An empty MMC console should pop up. Add a new Snapin (CTRL+M) Press the "Add" button Scroll to bottom of Add Standalone Snap-in dialog and select "Test Dashboard" Hit "Add Button" Hit "Close" Button to close "Add standalone Snap-in" dialog Hit "OK" to close "Add/Remove Snap-in" dialog Click on the "Test Dashboard" snapin now in the tree. Notice that the snapin loads correctly, and there is a blank groupbox. Close the MMC console. Do not save settings when prompted. Uncomment line 40 in TestDashboardControl.cs Rebuild Solution. (CTRL+Shift+B) Repeat steps 1 through 7. Click on the "Test Dashboard" snapin now in the tree. Notice the exception occuring on line 117 of FormNode.cs. This is the issue to be resolved. If there is ANYONE out there that has any ideas on what the problem is, I would love the help. I tried getting help from both the open source community and Microsoft, and I am now starting to feel like I am being orphaned/alienated for using the bloody library. This is just nuts....