Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

Windows MCE

Chad's Blog — Sat, 11 Mar 2006 06:55:36 GMT

I finally got enough stuff together for my MCE (Windows Media Center Edition) box (still don't have a remote) and started playing with it in the past few days. Here is a list of the stuff you should know if you want to put one of these things together yo

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:43:00 GMT

Ok you are right. I forgot to say that besides the own install directory it should not be nessecary to register the codec. Just put is in de app dir and let the program use it.

Btw does somebody know how I can check which codec WinDVD uses if gspot says that 3 codec are compatible. I'm trying to reduse the amount of codecs to a minimum. The background is that WinDVD crashes on a videofile with AC3 support when Mediaplayers does not. I'm wondering if this is because of another selection of codes by WinDVD compared to Mediaplayer.

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:05:00 GMT

The directory they are put in is irrelvent. They can be in any directory on the machine, they don't have to sharea common directory and most don't.

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:53:00 GMT

My opinion is that its not the issue that every company ships codecs with her product. The big problem here is that Microsoft makes it possible to install them on the system directory.

Companies should put her codecs in the application directory. Winamp does that correctly. Codecs are part of the application layer in the Microsoft architecture and should therefore stay in the application directory.

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Fri, 06 May 2005 19:57:00 GMT

Hell yes its MSFT's fault. I would classify myself as above average in my knowledge of codecs but I have had a nightmare of a time configuring my video server to play the wide varity of content available on the net. The system MSTF uses for registering and using codecs is ludacris. Oh yea lest I forget, XP SP2 has a bug that won't let you remove codecs with device manager. When you delete them they magically reappear when you reenter the codec screen. So to sum it up the system lets any application install codecs more than once then won't let ya delete them without an external app like codec sniper. Just another day in wacky windows world!!

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Tue, 03 May 2005 00:02:00 GMT

I understand the concerns about Codec Packs as well as the concerns and problems with each program installing its own set of codecs but what is the casual viewer to do to keep current and compatible with audio and video codecs?

Nice site, I enjoy the informed discussions here.

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:46:00 GMT

Thanks for the links to GSpot and SHERLOCK, they're very handy looking little apps.

When using Code Sniper does anyone know of a resource somewhere with a list of default XP codecs &/or codecs that get installed with common applications? (I wish I'd known about GSpot when I'd freshly installed windows...) as I'm sure I've got some evil Codecs floating around my system that shouldn't be there, but don' t know enough to start sniping them.

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:19:00 GMT

MikeLowery:

1. Google "GSpot" and "SHERLOCK - The Codec Detective"
2. "Codec Sniper" does an okay job, you need to know what you are doing to use it correctly. If you delete something you think you don't want, but need you can get into trouble.
3. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=de1491ac-0ab6-4990-943d-627e6ade9fcb&displaylang=en

CR: The beta version of GSpot does that, I just open it in GraphEdit to find out.

Guide To MPEG Playback In WMP
http://msmvps.com/chrisl/articles/10633.aspx

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Wed, 09 Feb 2005 23:38:00 GMT

Is there any way to tell what codec is needed for a given .mpg file? I recently received some .mpg's and ended up downloading and installing every codec i could find until finall one worked... is there an easier way??

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:01:00 GMT

1. How can I take inventory of what codecs are on a machine?
2. How can I remove the ones I don't want?
3. How can I control which codecs MediaCenter should use?

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Fri, 04 Feb 2005 05:27:00 GMT

@Jeff Atwood I just bought a tvtuner card with an hardware mpeg2 decoder/ encoder chip... Do you mind that I like MCE to use a codec that does the math on that hardware chip instead of my main cpu?

With other words forcing something upon someone is never a good idea and with that in mind we can search for a good solution for all....

Here is an idea... What if there's a generic interface every application can call (a bit like twain) In that interface you can set the preferred codecs for that program. There should be a way for a programmer to send the advised codecs for that application to the interface, but users would just as easily pick another one as there preffered codec.

Ted what do you think?

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:37:00 GMT

It's worth saying that on the MCE side it is an OEM product. The large amount of people that have issues with it and MPEG-2 decoders are trying to build there own machines. MCE is support only by the OEM's, the OEM's are the ones that are picking the MPEG-2 decoder that they like the best. MS PSS will not even take a call about MCE even if you pay them, it's supported by the OEM. In this case (and it will likely continue to be the case) including an MPEG-2 decoder in MCE does mean the average person is paying for it twice. The OEM's are not just going to say that there is a decoder included and we don't need to put the one we want in there. In effect, this adds to your problem by adding another MPEG-2 decoder. That's part of the problem you are trying to get away from. Just a note. :)

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:16:00 GMT

The parallels with DLL Hell are eerily accurate.

I think Ted's response is a copout; clearly, Microsoft needs to provide a default MPEG-2 implementation in the MCE box. Yeah, the OEMs may get pissed, but so what? What is more important: the Microsoft software customer, or some faceless OEM? At some point Microsoft has to take a clear stand for the customer; as Chris correctly points out, nobody else in this industry has the authority to make that kind of binding decision in the customer's favor.

OEMs will do what is best for them, not for us. Microsoft is the only consumer advocate that can help, and if they abdicate their responsibility here, all Microsoft customers lose.

Video Codecs are the next DLL Hell

TrackBack — Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:24:00 GMT

This issue needs more attention. Via Steve Makovsky Codecs are the next DLL hell. While I love Nero Digital's simplicity and quality, the MP4's it produces aren't compatible with most commercial DVD players (due to the AAC or AVC...

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:13:00 GMT

Thanks for the comments Ted! I know it's an interesting problem to fully solve for many reasons.

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:36:00 GMT

The problem with shipping an mpeg2 codec in the box is the royalties. When MS includes something it goes out in every copy whether the user will use it or not. Including the codecs would dramatically increase the price of windows to OEM's. These same OEM's already have deals with IHV's to include their mpeg2 decoders and use it as an upsell to customers.

Note that a DV codec is almost synonymous with an mpeg2 codec.

I can't say what MS will or won't do in the future, but it isn't quite as simple as just including them.

As to the original post: It's a very difficult problem to solve. DShow was based on the merit system (pun intended) with the idea being that using a combination of the filter’s merit and how specific the media type/sub type is one could reasonably pick the right codec every time. It wasn't really designed for a competing merit nuclear arms race.

Now you can solve it on an application level easy enough, just specify the filter you want and ignore the merit. But how to generically solve it, where any application will always get the "right" filter is quite a bit more complex. The question becomes how do you knwo what the right filter is? You can't programmatically tell if one has better decode quality than another. Heck, people can't even subjectively agree on what is best.

Test solution 1: within the current framework each user can choose what they want their "default" one to be and raise its merit all the way. If individuals do it, then there is no arms race, but if MS provides a mechanism for you to do it you will suddenly see every new codec with its merit set at the max, and it will all be useless again. So now we need to provide a way to lower the merit of other “unwanted filters”, easy enough but now the system is just as complex as it is today.

Test solution 2: Teach each app writer how to select their own filter and ignore the merit. This way they don’t need to register high, they will get what they want anyway. The problem is this is extra work and they can just get this for “free” by raising their merit. Development time is money. Aside from that there are the generic applications (like MCE) which need to rely on someone else’s codec and they don’t have the luxury of specifying their own unless they present you with a list and ask you to choose.

I really don’t have any answers for you. What I can tell you is that we are (and have been for quite some time) aware of the problem. It is one of our main concerns while designing the next generation of multimedia API’s.

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:57:00 GMT

Well, MCE is an OEM product, so the OEM can choose what Codec to provide for the consumer.(and they are certainly informed about this) But think about this:
What do you think what would have happened if Microsoft DID provide a MPEG2 Codec.... LAW SUIT! Everytime Microsoft puts something in there software there are other software producers saying: "This is not fair, how can we exist and make money if Microsoft is bundeling this and that with Windows"

re: Codec's = New Age DLL Hell? Hell Yes

chrisl — Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:48:00 GMT

One HUGE way that MSFT could help with this on MCE would be to 1) Ship with a DV codec, or 1b) TELL people that they do not ship with a DVD codec, and suggest where to get them when you are setting up the machine. or 2) Have a better error message when you try to play a DVD on your Media Center PC. Luckily I knew of Nvidias beta codec so was able to get up and running quickly..if I had to shell out more money to get my media center to play DVD's out of the box I would have been pissed...