Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

jamese42 — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 20:25:16 GMT

No, I wouldn't buy a Media Center Server, but I would buy a server built to be an always-on server that has Windows Home Server, Windows Media Server and Windows Home Automation Server functionality.

Windows Home Automation Server includes lighting control, window shade control, audio/video distribution and video security camera control.

All this hooked up to a few Sony 400-disc DVD changers along with my home network would be a great solution for my home automation.

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

Softsled — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 08:28:39 GMT

I would buy a WHS. (I hate having to leave my pc on all the time just so I don't miss a recording.) On the other hand there is no way in h**l that I am paying $1800 for it. I might consider paying $600 for a headless, 500gb, dual tuner system. I don't know how much cablecard would raise the price so I don't know what I would pay for that integration. Why doesn't MS give the non-geeks an option to buy a Windows Media Center server that looks just like an extender? They could sell tuners & hd upgrades that plug and play via usb. The other "dumb" extenders would pull their content from this server. If they can build and sell the Xbox 360 for $400 with a 20gb hardrive, they can surely add a 500gb hard drive and a couple of tuners and bring it in under $600. That would really be the only need for a server edition of Media Center in my opinion, because those of us who really want it will build it ourselves. We're not gonna pay the absorbent prices. Plus, we can build small and upgrade as we go. Glad to see Softsled being mentioned!

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

Darryl — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 01:39:41 GMT

I haven't read other people's comments, so sorry if I'm saying the same thing everyone else has said...

Yesterday I watched an online presentation about the HP MediaSmart Server based on Windows Home Server. They had someone answering questions live. Over and over people asked about adding media center capabilities, essentially a media center server. There is no question that the interest is there. The main issues are probably price and the added complexity of media acquisition/management.

The HP WHS-based server is $600. I think they could offer a media center server for under $1k, which is well under the price of the high-end stuff offered by Niveus and others. You can make it cheaper by specializing what it has to do. WHS works great with a wimpy CPU, 500MB RAM, and no graphics card at all. It isn't a compute server, nor is it a visualization server. With the tuners doing the media encoding, the rest of the media center server's components could be as wimpy as the WHS product, which implies a lower cost.

I think the added complexity might be a bigger issue. That seems to be why the WHS team shied away from media center in the first place. And I think they underestimated the demand.

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

chrisl — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:34:35 GMT

matthewD: Thanks for the replies.

Glenn: Your making a common mistake that others are too. I'm not saying it is not possible to create it at a low price, I'm saying that Microsoft and their OEMs will ensure it is beefy enough to do everything if this idea is to work. I have no doubt we all could make our own with cheap parts, but OEMs will not. When you have streaming, encoding, transcoding, file sharing, backup, etc involved all at once you are not sticking underpowered components in that machine and then selling it if you are (say) HP.

Vincent Britton: I read this as what I'm been saying as Microsoft concentrating on other things. Your right that in theory if Media Center was on a server that it should be stable. However, in practice it likely work work the same. Instead of moving Media Center off the desktop to make it stable, they should be making it stable on the desktop. Make it run in a sandbox so codecs don't get screwed up.

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

Vincent Britton — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:34:54 GMT

Where to start...

I'd pay over $2000 for this and here is why.

My problem with Media Center currently is the Desktop OS. While I have yet to make to jump to Vista MC, I find XP MCE very unstable. And my experiences with Vista don’t make me think it’ll be any better. I install and uninstall a lot of programs on my computer. This eventually reduces stability to the point I have to rebuild it every year or so.

Another big problem is I can’t use my computer when Media Center is doing something. When I want to play MS Flight Simulator it takes 100% CPU and causes issues with Media Center. I don’t want to watch “Gossip Girl” but I can’t use my computer when someone else is! If this was on a server, I wouldn’t have this problem.

With WHS MCE, I would hope that it would be a stable server version of MCE! With limited additional software installed on the Server, It would be Tivo Stable!

I don't currently have Cablecards, it isn't because of the price. I don't want to spend that kind of money to get access to 10 or so HD Channels Most of which I currently get OTA. If DirecTV had a card available at the same price, I'd have them today! 70 Channels today soon to be over 100!!

Maybe DirecTV should release there own version of WHS! Then they could lock it down.

This is indeed more expensive then just watching TV, but sometimes you have to pay to play. We as early adopters always pay more. If/When it takes off, prices will come down.

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

Glenn Blinckmann — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:02:09 GMT

I have more comments. Yes, I do think that this is possible to do. SageTV does something very similar to this with Windows Home Server and the hardware requirements aren't very high. Just about a 3 GHz P4 will do for High Def. (And that's just to transcode HD down to SD.) Any modern processor would have no problem.

gblinckmann.spaces.live.com/.../cns!7386096BFC12195A!896.entry

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

matthewD — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 06:22:29 GMT

I lagged between starting my post and submitting it, as I was putting my daughter to bed. The two previous posts weren't there when I started, but I do want to acknowledge they answered the question and submitted a price tag.

Also, like your blog Chris.

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

matthewD — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 03:43:22 GMT

Chris:

You keep asking but no one is giving you the answer you're looking for--an actual price.

They've already sold me on this whole OEM only for HDTV structure. I get that it's going to cost me more dollars, but it should have better than support than I can get from component manufacturers.

I'm a DirecTV customer with 13 boxes paying about $350 a month (when you factor in all the NBA, NFL, NFL SuerFan, MLB, College FB, Nascar Superfan options). The only reason I've been waiting on pulling the trigger for an OEM VMC box to repalce my MCE2005 box sitting in my rack is that I'm worried the CableLabs ceritifed OEM Vista boxe's won't support DirecTV. I've seriously considered changing to cable but with cable I lose the #1 benefit of DirecTV, all the extra HD channels.

My personal opinion is that DirecTV has already sold many many HD Vista Tuners, they just don't look like an ATI Ocur so we haven't noticed them yet. THe HR20 and HR21 have ethernet ports, and I truly believe that since, and I may be wrong Chris, that the whole OCUR standard is somehow IP based, that maybe DirecTV is going to dump it's HD stream directly to the Media Center's hard drive. I just think this is the only way to be somewhat upgrade-proof. I know that cable is moving to SDV and DIrecTV is moving to MPEG4.

If the provider owns the tuner, and the tuner is a box, then you can charge a full subscription fee for the box and the box can be upgraded for free. Plus if they come out with better compression schemes or new technology, like SDV, then you can simply upgrade the box.

Anyway, I'd pay $1499 if it was a home media center / home server. I'm not including OCUR or DirecTV tuner costs, becuase I fully expect to pay a monthly fee for those, even an additional monthly fee, which I'm willing to do.

I think the reason why everyone wants the vista media center server is that we want an ugly, loud, rack mountable media center device that can record HDTV. Why do we want it ugly, loud, and rack mountable? So that its cheap. We don't care what it looks like or what it sounds like in our Media Closet. If it could be quiet, fine, but I don't need burshed aluminum finish or LCD screen or even a $50 HDMI card. $50 is 3.5% of the total cost I want to pay. It doesn't sound like much, but if you can remove the LCD screens, sideshow screens, DVD drives, Blu-Ray drives, expensive cases, video cards, you can offer redundant hot swap power supplies, removable drive bays, next day onsite service. Ideally I'd pay $1999 for a 4 or 8 core Dell PowerEdge 2950 with media center. I'd pay for a hardware RAID card, but never for a blueray drive. Microsoft doesn't allow me to legally play a DVD across the network (I'm not talking about copying it to the network, they won't even let me play the physical disk over the network, even in 480i and 2.1 sound) so why would I ever have a BluRay or HD-DVD player in my media center box.

If I could buy a Windows Home server for $1499 with redundant power supplies, adding an additional $500-$1000 for Vista Media Center capabilities is a steal. That's who they should be marketing the Vista Server to, the people who are already happily ponying up $1499 for a very redundant WHS box. Then, you can tell your wife that the Tivo functionality is only an additional $500 bucks + a monthly fee from DirecTV.

If they had that, I wouldn't have to buy all this stuff on my business credit card and lie about how much money I've spent.

So again, my final answer. $1499 for a good WHS box without cringing. $1999 for a decent combo box. (note, I'm not including any substantial hard drives in this because the consumer already knows they need to spend more for more space. I'm talking about a base of two 73GB SAS / SATA drives in RAID 1. But, I do want a 3 year warranty like Dell has. You call, they send you the hard drive overnight, you send the defecting one back. That's worth a lot of money. I don't want to have to call the makers of components. My time is worth more than the $500 I'll save building it myself. Unless you're a gamer, or need a custom case, there is no reason imo to build your own station, save for saving a slight bit of money. If you're in college and you're going to pirate the OS, then it's totally worth it. With HD, it doesn't seem like you can do that anyway.

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

John — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 03:33:58 GMT

I have sat around and waited for the integration of HD Digital Cable and or HD Satellite for Media Center now for 3 or 4 years, the version two extenders are ridiculously behind schedule and overpriced (no Blu-Ray or HD DVD), this whole thing has been botched so bad now by lack of any real marketing and lack of product availability I don't believe there is any hope for what could have been a really cool basis for a home entertainment system, if not the best.

Media Center Server???? Please...get the first product right first, and it was already a server when applies correctly.

How can a company who dominates the OS, Software and Gaming markets do so poorly with this product? Not to mention most cringe when they here the word "Vista" at this point as they clutch their antiquated XP machines to their graves.

It's over unless the extenders are around 100 bucks, there is reliable quad tuning digital cable and or directv media centers for under two grand, and they make the consumer understand the concept with some real marketing.

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

TomA — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:40:16 GMT

chrisl: I'd pay up to 2k for a MHS because i assume it could replace my existing SBS at that price point, and have substantial storage.

What's stopping me from buying one now? Wife acceptance factor. We HAD a MCE2005 and a MSFT comcast STB. She didn't like the GUIs. She also hated the bugs and updates common in PCs. Her expectation is appliance level stability, and that means TIVO.

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

chrisl — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:20:38 GMT

John

a) WHS has no marketability. Geeks often forget that average people don't need this stuff, or think about it at all. The last thing my Mom is running out to buy is a server to backup the few documents and mp3's she has. Perfect example of the real world. More than one PC in the house, but is never going to buy a Windows Home Server to complement them. This is the market Microsoft created WHS for, yet it is the hardest to sell to.

b) There is no marketability in servers for home use unless you are only talking about geeks (and then, they want to build their own). As I have said, I see zero reason why Microsoft should turn any bit of focus to create a media server when 1) They can't figure out how to sell Media Center at a good price 2) It's been five years and Media Center has had pretty lackluster upgrades with a few exceptions.

I might want one device that runs 24/7, but I'm not thinking about me. If the Media Center market was about me, it wouldn't look like or function like it does now. If the Media Center market was about geeks, it would support QAM and digital subchannels.

Media Center is a broad product, and thinking that a standalone "media server" is anywhere near what the goal should be is just wrong in my opinion. You can't market it, it would be too expensive, and you lose the PC aspect. All of these things are problems with the overall platform. Too me, introducing a server product outside of existing PCs that already function as servers is a waste of development time and would not reap any rewards in the user base or with OEMs who support a low selling and under utilized product.

Until a standalone server can have a price tag below a TiVo, it will not sell to the public. Geeks will buy, unless they are disgusted with parts of the sells method, just as they are with CableCARD.

Again, current Media Center PCs are servers. This is the market that should be targeted first and nailed first (again, five years and it hasn't made any leaps). As I said in the post, I don't doubt that there is a market for a media server, there is. Geeks and enthusiasts. That said, Microsoft doesn't know how to target enthusiasts wants and wishes. The product is not for enthusiasts, it is for everyone. Servers do not sell to everyone, they sell to enthusiasts.

kjoe just put it nicely on TGB (although, I don't agree that a backup server should really be a part of a desktop).

kjoe: "A dedicated media center server wouldn't sell well for the same reason that a dedicated Windows Home Server won't sell well. They should both be usable as one of the PC's in your house. When MS decides to include both in Vista (Ultimate at least) and ship Softsled in all Vista flavors then you'll have something. Until then its a waste of money to dedicate a PC to either of these server tasks (that can both be accomplished well with 3rd party software on a regular machine)"

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

Chris C — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:13:51 GMT

I like the Home Media Server concept. I like the Media Center PC concept. I don't think it needs to all be in one box, but integration between components (MCE, Servers, Extenders) could be more robust and seamless. I know others have said it before and perhaps Microsoft (Charlie Owens recent plea) is now willing to listen when users ask for simple things like the ability to record on a Media Center PC but then automate the moving of that file over to the Home Media Server for sharing across the connected home. As for power...if you are in such a position as to be streaming HD content to 3-4 destinations at the same time, you may as well admit that your needs require more bucks. For me...I have a MCE PC Athlon 64 3200+ w/1 gb ram, a Media Server Athlon 64 X2 5600+ w/2gb of ram, a 360 in the living room streaming off the server for my kids movies all day long and connecting with the MCE PC occassionally, and another MCE in the bedroom, and never a performance hiccup. Now...I'd really like to sync the 360 with more than one MCE PC without all the hassle and integrated Directv, but I'm not entirely unhappy with where we are today. My two cents.

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

JohnCz — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:47:27 GMT

chrisl, no one is saying that improvements such as softsled and zune/mce integration shouldn't come first. But I think it is an equally desireable *future* to have MCE running on WHS hardware. It seems to me that you are not sold on the value or marketability of WHS. If you were then you probably would want some convergence as well. Wouldn't you prefer to keep just one device (excluding modem/router) powered 24x7?

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

chrisl — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:17:22 GMT

Jmanghera: That's another great way to put it.

TomA: I'm surprised you would pay that much. What's holding you back from getting a current CableCARD PC? You can get a dual tuner CableCARD PC for under $2,000 (IIRC) from Velocity Micro. If you are willing to pay up to $2,000 for a product marketed as a Home Server, why not get the same in a desktop package that doesn't claim to be a server yet still function as one (with WHS backup functions of course)?

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

TomA — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:11:37 GMT

I'd pay 1200-2000 for a MHS.

The existing OCUR tuners are too expensive. The PCs are a bit difficult to get apples/apples comparisons.

A MHS better have more functionality than my current TIVO Series3 setup....and be just as reliable/simple.

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

Jmanghera — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:09:27 GMT

It's not really a question of would you buy MCE + WHS. But more of if I buy this MCE + WHS super product what does it solve? I keep going back to features but hey that is important. If this super product still doesn't support core features Softsled, or full video streaming, or cluster pooling, buy anywhere watch anywhere, etc. then what use is it?

After spending $1500 or whatever and the product still doesn't let you stream your damn wedding dvds then whats good about it?

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

chrisl — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:08:18 GMT

Shawn: If $500-$800 is "attainable" then why isn't there even a base WHS config selling for that? The lowest priced is over $500 and only has 500GB of hard drive space. If you really think an OEM is going to add more hard drive space and tuners to that config and have it under $800, you have another thing coming. Hardware prices might drop, but not that fast.

You fail to understand that OEMs will not offer Media Center running on cheap hardware because (a) support nightmare (b) Microsoft will not sponsor it. Since the software comes from Microsoft, they set the minimum requirements for hardware. GO talk to the TV Team at Microsoft and they will laugh at you when you talk about shipping a system today on low powered hardware.

Microsoft shouldn't focus on MCE+WHS because it would involve both teams, and MCE has much more to do outside of that to actually improve on what they started 5 years ago. I'm not sure why you think it would just involve the Home Server guys, but I guarantee you it wouldn't. Xbox 360 didn't ship with Extender functions because the core guys leading that thought it would be cool. It involved the Extender spending their development time working on the Xbox.

I do find the same type of thing funny about your reply though. Based on previous comments, you seem to not care that there is no integration between the Zune and Media Center, but you jump at the idea of Media Center being integrated into Home Sever.

Oh, and Microsoft has said that the next version of Home Server will have some focus with Media Center, it just isn't clear what that is. Tuners in Home Server? Recording to Home Server? Auto recordings transfer to Home Server?

I'm all for Microsoft thinking about it, but as others have said if you get WHS+MCE before something like Softsled, no one will buy it (even enthusiasts). And nothing will change my mind that you can't market any type of server to none-enthusiasts.

Tidbits

Connecting you to your media — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:02:51 GMT

Chris Lanier asks whether you would buy a Media Center server. I would. Leave him a comment with your

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

Shawn Oster — Fri, 09 Nov 2007 23:46:16 GMT

I'd pay between $500 - $800 and that's attainable.

I'm currently running Vista Media Center on a 3 year old Dell 3000, 2.8GHZ Pentium4, 2GB of memory with a nVidia DualTV tuner that acts as a media, file, backup, subversion and IIS server and it's completely headless, with all viewing done via my XBox 360 downstairs, managed via Remote Desktop when needed. Guess what? Works great.

If a sub-$500 system like that can work as well as it does then there is no reason there can't be a $750 system that is WHS + a media server. Home nerds are already gravitating towards having a server of some sorts, whether it's the more formal WHS, a cobbled together Linux system or a spare Server 2003 machine. From there you just take the next step and add Media support.

I bought my Dell 3000 for $389 and it would have even been cheaper if I could have bought a version without the modem, mouse/keyboard ports, audio, video or expandable slots. All I really need is power, LAN and a ton of eSATA and USB 2.0 ports.

I find it funny when people say things like, "Microsoft shouldn't focus on...", because that implies that there is a small number of people available for working on these issues. Do you think that if the WHS team starts working on a WHS+MCE concept that the eHome/Media Center team will just stop working?

WHS+MCE is a great idea and it's time is coming. Three years ago when I bought a new house I not only picked out cabinets and floors but also sound systems, network drops and the location and size of my patch panel where all my phone and data would come through and this isn't on some big expensive house, just a basic 1100 sqft townhouse in the lower end of our area. I can easily see the next step being a "Server Package" where you can pick something from HP or Traquil and for $750 they plop it in a little cute home rack system with WHS+MCE installed.

re: Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

chrisl — Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:50:26 GMT

Crim: This isn't the Media Center teams concept (or if it is, they sure have not said anything public about it).

This is what several Media Center users are requesting they do. Several have said they want WHS+MCE just like you said. I don't agree that this is the way to go when you factor in the rest of the market. For enthusiasts, it is perfect for many. To me, it is not something Microsoft should be concentrating on at all given the mass of other problems with Media Center and related products.