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Updated: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center - Chris Lanier's Blog

Updated: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Over the past week I have got a great amount of feedback (more feedback) from my question about switch to Vista Media Center.  First of all, I would like to thank everyone who has commented.  Reactions are all over the board to this question.  From people who will switch right out of the gate, to those waiting for the dust to settle, to those who see no point in an upgrade, and those who think it’s time to move on to another product.

I have mixed views about Vista Media Center, keep reading to see what they are!

PVR/CableCARD:  CableCARD is--without a doubt--the reason to upgrade to Vista Media Center.  Native digital cable support, native HDTV support.  However, a common problem however is that CableCARD’s are a technology only available within the United States.  Those outside of the states have yet to see any additional advances for Media Center being used as a PVR.  There is no addition DVB support, no MHEG support, no DAB support.  Those in the US don’t have to worry about these, but basically broadcasts outside of the US use different technologies then those inside of the US.  We can all thank the FCC for wanting another “standard” for the US to use.

We all know that only OEM systems are getting CableCARD, which is a real drag.  Not much to say about this though, I’ve said before it’s CableLabs way or the Highway.  I would much rather see CableCARD support then not.

EPG/Guide:  There are several enhancements in the EPG, the one everyone wants to the “mini-guide” which has been common to STB’s for years now.  Most people however, do not see this as something that they are dieing to have.

Extenders:  This is one of the biggest reasons not to upgrade to Vista Media Center.  v1 Extenders including the Linksys WMCE54AG, HP x5400, and Xbox v1 title are no longer supported under Vista.  This is a huge problem for people who have spent $300 a-pop on either the Linksys or HP Extenders.  It’s going to be very costly to upgrade Extenders.

v2 Extenders are on the way, codenamed Pika, and these better support additional formats like DivX and XviD or I’m going to feel even worse about not being able to use v1 Extenders.  If you are going to take away something, the second offering better provide what was lacking in the first-generation, along with a lower price tag (which, I believe they will).

UI:  I’m getting used to the UI more-and-more, but you just don’t mess with success like this.  Let’s not forget about the Media Center 2005 UI was actually an “award winning” design.  The UI is ok, but nothing special.  I like the MCE 2005 UI over the Vista UI, plain-and-simple.

Lack of Features:  Vista Media Center just doesn’t seem like its being enough to the table, to make up for what it dropped.  Windows Messenger support has been dropped, Caller ID support has been dropped, v1 Extenders have been dropped, the UI we all love has been dropped, even with RC2 stability is not what it should be, and the list keeps going.

Microsoft had a big chance with Vista to bring together all of the features it has lacked for the past four years.  I can’t say that they have done this.  First up, DVD Streaming something that I have talked about several times here.  I have said that Microsoft has the technology to do it, but for whatever reason Vista Media Center doesn’t support it.  While I don’t know everything about it, there is an public interview posted that talks about it.  With Sony's DVD Changer selling for $300 Microsoft missed the whole idea here.  If DVD Streaming to Extenders can’t be done, I can surely understand that.  However, one thing that everyone would like to know from Microsoft is why.

This brings me to another point which has nothing to do with Vista, but Microsoft needs more transparency with its Media Center team. Since Matt Goyer has left Micosoft, it’s been very quite from the other Media Center bloggers.  Of course, working on Vista should be Microsoft’s top priority, but anyone from the Media Center team reading this I would like to see you start blogging.  Media Center has a growing community behind it, we need transparency with some of the issues and features that we (the community) feel you should be providing.

Back to Vista Media Center, Windows Messenger support being dropped kind of sucked.  We all know that Windows Messenger itself was dropped from Vista, but wasn’t the implied use of that fancy Microsoft Remote Keyboard for Windows XP Media Center Edition for Messenger?  It might have just been me, but it was a perfect thing.

Called ID support has been dropped, which I can kind of understand—except—why drop it?  Even if it’s not used by many did the system change so much that it would have taken a ton of work to get it going again?  Somehow, I doubt.  Those who need Caller ID should now check out mceTapiRex which also support Skype.

“Softsled”:   On December 4, 2004, Paul Thurrott let the world know that Microsoft had a software-based Extender for PC’s.  Yet to see the light of day, there are several conspiracy theories why it has not be released.  Frankly, I don’t care what Microsoft reasons are they need to release it or open up development for the platform so it could be done by a third party.  Beyond TV Link does this for SnapStream’s product, I believe Myth TV has a like solution, and Sage TV Placeshifter does it for Sage products.  Those are all of Microsoft’s main competitors.  There isn’t much to say about this, but Microsoft needs to do something here.  I have seen many people dump Media Center for this very feature.

Overall:  Anyway, Keep bring your reasons for upgrade or not upgrading!  I know I left out some things above, and I’ll add too it below this when I think of other reasons why I will be upgrading (or not upgrading).

Right now, I’m sticking with MCE 2005.  I’m waiting to see what DIRECTV Support is going to look like.  If it’s not above what cable can offer, I will be buying a new PC with Vista and CableCARD.  I’m going to wait for that to play out, and by then maybe we can find out more about “Softsled” and DVD Streaming and I will be sold 100% on Vista Media Center again.  I’m still locked on Media Center, other packages just can not compete from my point of view until they either support CableCARD or DIRECTV.

Media Center still has the most potential, and at the same time is still very far behind.  Anyone want to get me a job at Microsoft and I’ll be the transparency for the team??  Just kidding.

Additions: Ian pointed out that Media Center Markup Language (MCML) could allow development of a Windows Messenger Live plug-in.  One thing I didn’t bring up above is that Media Center development for third parties has been much improved in Vista.  Plug-ins can now be much richer then the HTML ones from past versions of Media Center.

Peter points out that photo viewing and browsing though Media Center is much improved.  With tags, EXIF data, and more.  My Pictures in MCE 2005 is rather limited, just allowing folder browsing.  Big upgrade in Vista Media Center.

Brian adds that no matter what the difference in the MCE 2005 UI vs. Vista Media Center UI, it's still one of the top UI designs in any CE-type device.  Anyone who has ever seen a cable DVR knows this (minus those using TiVo) 

Update: David Fleischman asks: Why Aren’t People More Excited About Media Center?

Update 2: Matt Goyer has replied to some of my points with two great posts...

Matt Goyer: Why Media Center does not stream DVDs

Matt Goyer: Does eHome get blogging?

Published Monday, October 16, 2006 8:31 AM by chrisl

Comments

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Matt Goyer no longer works for Microsoft.

http://mediacenter.mattgoyer.com/archives/2006/08/23/1170

Monday, October 16, 2006 9:25 AM by MattP

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Yes, sorry I left a few words out.  Should have said...

"Since Matt Goyer has left, it’s been very quite from the other Media Center Bloggers"

Monday, October 16, 2006 9:43 AM by chrisl

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

One thing to add is the developer platform.

MCML means that developers can add functions to Media Center with the same UI technology that the Media Center team uses. So an enterprising developer could add Windows Live Messenger support and make the UI much better than the old Windows Message UI.

I know at the moment that is not much incentive to move but as new applications come out you are not going to want to be stuck with old HTML applications

Monday, October 16, 2006 10:31 AM by Ian Dixon (The Media Center Show)

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Great point Ian.  I'll add MCML development as a pro.

Monday, October 16, 2006 10:32 AM by chrisl

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Dropping messenger and Caller ID are 2 very big reasons why I wouldn’t be upgrading anytime soon.  

While there will be/are add-ons for this functionality, and also I'm sure that caller ID isn't used that much by the media center community at large, but I really like this feature and have formed a kind of dependency on it now.  Why should the developer community have to recreate what was already there in a previous version – when the feature set was sufficient to begin with.

Messenger is something that I do use all the time in media center, and I’m sure I’m not alone on that one.  I find it odd that Microsoft would remove this feature without giving any other type of facility to accommodate what was lost.  I assume they are hoping that the development community with take up the call and create a VMCE add-on to do this for them – I’m sure the add-on will exist fairly soon (if not already), but this shouldn’t be where developers are spending their time and energy.  There are so many other great things that should be/could be developed – so why force the development community to recreate these features as well as add new ones.

Monday, October 16, 2006 11:26 AM by Simon Worth

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

The licensing limitations which hit the wire last week seem to be a fairly compelling reason to not upgrade.  Vista is too expensive to have this limitation, especially for those of us (gamers, MCE hobbyists, etc) who tend to frequently rebuild our systems with new hardware.  This just isn't gonna fly.

Also, is it me or has the whole CableCARD thing been awfully quiet over the last several months?  I mean, It's still coming.......right?  

I've been dual-booting between MCE2005 and Vista for months, and I honestly can't make up my mind.  I don't know what I'll do when I finally need to pay for Vista.  The cost of the whole thing might just be too much (when you consider a new computer which is a prerequisite  for CableCARD).  This is especially true if I can't upgrade in a year, which is what I like to do.  It's one thing if Dell starts offering $500 machines that include Vista MCE and CableCARD tuners, but I just don't see that happening.

Aaron

Monday, October 16, 2006 11:37 AM by Aaron

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

I was wondering if Vista improves on some basic PVR features?

For example, in MCE 2005, if I record a show to stop recording 5 minutes after the end and I then decide to record a show after this one, I have to cancel the previous one. It does not allow for overlap. Instead of asking to cancel the recording of the first show, it could also ask if you want to start recording the 2 second show 5 minutes after its start or end the first show at the right time instead of 5 minutes later. It is infuriating to have the first show stop recording, specially when both shows are on the same channel and the first show is already playing.

There's a bunch of other little basic (WAF critical) details like that that can be improved.

Monday, October 16, 2006 1:25 PM by Jerome Paradis

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Personally, the new photo app is the reason I'll be moving to MCE Vista.  True, for me as a Canadian there hasn't been any movement forward on the PVR front but there is much more to MCE than just the PVR.

The new photos app allows you to browse photos and videos by tags, including automatic date-based browsing based on the EXIF information from your digital camera.  Browsing photos on a nice high-def display in a way that makes sense to my family = priceless.

Monday, October 16, 2006 1:37 PM by Peter Near

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Face MS screwed the pooch by alienating it's hardcore entushiats.  My MCE box is primarliy setup as a DVD jukebox/backup DVR in case my cable company DVR box fails.  Why would i want to invset in something with so many restrictions because of MS pandering to Hollywood.  If Microsoft could ever see the consumer as thier friend instead of sleeping with hollywood maybe MCE could be a player in the living room.

Monday, October 16, 2006 1:38 PM by java

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

I'd actually say it goes a bit deeper than "hardcore enthusiasts".  I mean, it's not like some of these things (read: Extenders) were technoloies that only people reading this blog and The Green Button purcahsed.  The Linksys and HP Extenders were big name electronics makers who made these devices for the "everyday consumer".

Yes, "hardcore enthusiasts" have most likely alienated the most, but we except the product to be something great.  To me, Vista Media Center is something good, but not great.  Yes, it's getting there, but later this months Media Center as a product has it's 4th Birthday (break out the ballons everyone) and it should be more than what Vista has shaped up to be.

PS Jerome - The records should overlap in MCE 2005.  What should happen (on a single tuner machine) is that the first show will record over 5 minutes and include the first 4-5 minutes of the second show.  The second show should start just as the 5 minute padding for the first show expires.  You shouldn't have to do anything manually.  If you have a dual tuner machine, then the second tuner will pick up while the first tuner is sitting recording the 5 minute padding.

Monday, October 16, 2006 2:11 PM by chrisl

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

First fair comparison done so far. Great work - and basically agree with everything stated. Personally though Id prefer the use of YAC over tapirex - because yac is free.

So in a nut shell - no reason to upgrade if you live outside the USA !

Good luck MCE team in Redmond, suppose there is going to be no reason to do a worldwide tour about MCE now.....

Monday, October 16, 2006 3:40 PM by Impact

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Well being in the UK, it would seem that I'm in one of the parts of the world not worth investing in....which seems pretty much PAR for the course, seeing what odds and sods are missing for me in MCE2005. I'm gradually switching off the whole Vista thing, and if MS aren't careful I see a certain Mr Jobs coming up on the blindside, building on the iPod phenomenon and ruling the living room.

Monday, October 16, 2006 3:42 PM by EZ

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Hmm, thanks Chris. However, the behavior you described does not happen for us on 2005. Our 2 records won't overlap. What actually happens is that the second recording shows up as a conflict to resolve... I have to choose between one and the other. Maybe there are settings to change this behavior?  Strange.

Monday, October 16, 2006 4:58 PM by Jerome Paradis

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Not interested in VMCE unless there's Softsled support.  I actually just recently moved over from MCE2005 to MythTV just to get Softsled support.  It works great!  Unfortunately, the W.A.F. for MythTV wasn't quite there, so I'm installing SageTV (which also has softsled-like capabilities) to see how that works out.  

Monday, October 16, 2006 6:54 PM by hidden

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Chris, Here's another thing to note about Cable Cards - that more and more local cable monopolists are using switched networks to deliver channels, making Cable Card 1.0 devices obsolete even before Vista arrives. See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4457249&&#post4457249 and http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4480205&&#post4480205 I'm truly frustrated by this, as I've pinned all my hopes on CC, and it would appear that those dreams have already been crushed in my hometown of Raleigh, NC Hopefully the little

Monday, October 16, 2006 7:35 PM by Andy

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Cable card does it for me.  I hate the idea though that you have to buy a system off the shelf.  I need to see more details.  

I linked this article to my blog.  Good stuff.

Monday, October 16, 2006 9:33 PM by Kevin

# FloppyHead.com » Blog Archive » Will you upgrade to Microsoft’s Vista media center?

# Matt Goyer’s Media Center Blog » Does eHome get blogging?

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

dont u think "very quite" should be "very quiet"?

Monday, October 16, 2006 11:56 PM by someone

# re: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

<p><blockquote>"On December 4, 2004, Paul Thurrott let the world know that Microsoft had a software-based Extender for PC’s.  Yet to see the light of day, there are several conspiracy theories why it has not be released. (...) Beyond TV Link does this for SnapStream’s product, I believe Myth TV has a like solution, and Sage TV Placeshifter does it for Sage products."</blockquote></p>

<p>This illustrates very clearly how Microsoft is working against their customers - in contrast to other companies. The smaller competitors are offering far more complete solutions with a lot of features requested by the users. MS is cynically ignoring customer demand and instead obviously emphasizes other commercial considerations.</p>

<p>Even if highest possible profit is the goal for both MS, Apple, Google, Snapstream etc., there is a huge difference in how MS handles and relates to it's customers, compared to the other companies mentioned. Maybe it is time for Microsoft to start learning.</p>

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:03 AM by Tor Erik A

# re: Updated: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

It's great that they improved the picture browsing. However, I don't watch my pictures everyday, so I don't care about the new browsing method.

What I do use on a daily basis is:

1- Live TV / PVR

2- Messenger

3- DVD / Videos

I think there was a priority problem here. Why put the efforts on a module that is used once a month, and remove one that is used almost daily?

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:24 AM by Eric Pronovost

# re: Updated: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

No offensne Eric but I or my wife, uses the picture gallery nearly everyday, and I've never even configured the Messenger in MCE2k5. Also I know 5 other people who use MCE2k5 that have likewise never configured Messenger.

Just because you don't use a feature and you do use someother feature does not mean everyone elses usage habits are the same as yours.

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 8:34 PM by MattP

# re: Updated: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

My next home media purchase is whatever can record directv hd.  Its an intel and directv partnership, its being put under the viiv brand.  If thats not media center then I will no longer be using media center.

The minor information released on the new offering sounds like it will handle by cross room, to/from my laptop and my music collection.  Its the cheaper and smarter way to do and media center just costs too much over the coarse of its life for features i want but don't have yet.  Media center has been left behind.

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:04 PM by Bryan Socha

# - &raquo; Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:45 AM by - » Thoughts on Vista Media Center

# TPN :: The Media Center Show &raquo; Blog Archive &raquo; The Media Center Show #79 - Media Center Development (Part 1)

# re: Updated: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

I agree with a lot of this post. I have been beta testing each Vista build and I can't decide if I want to upgrade right away. I loved MCE2005's look; sorta blah about VistaMCE's look. The 2nd tuner on my Nvidia nTV Dual card won't work under Vista. Nvidia says no new driver, must buy a new tuner card. That's BS! I can even see where the registry key is incomplete, should be easy to fix for them. CableCard for only new machines? That's BS. I should be able to go to Best Buy and buy a ATi or Hauppage CableCard TV Tuner upgrade. FM still doesn't allow recording. That's BS. My orig xbox can't be a extender. BS. No XviD or DivX? BS. Can't connect to a domain unless you get ultimate? BS. Vista's price? BS.BS.BS. I really loved my old MCE box until it died. Not switching to iTV either (but watch Apple pick up where MS left off). Now I just download torrents of my fav shows. Oh well - I almost liked you Microsoft.

Thursday, October 19, 2006 7:31 PM by jgs9455

# re: Updated: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

Whatever happened to directv support.  They're being very secretive about this.  Hopefully, it's still coming...  They get this, and I'll be a Media Center user for life.

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:08 AM by sportsunit

# re: Updated: Here It Is: My Thoughts on Vista Media Center

You guys are missing several points.

Windows Messenger is as old as the hills and MS doesn't want to support it anymore.

Just recently the MSN team got eaten up by the Windoze team so maybe we will see a MSN Messenger add-on for MCE - this is probably due to all the resources they are putting into MSN Messenger.

Hollywierd won't let anyone get to the crown jewels (HD content) without HDCP protection all the way thru the stream.  This means that MS is gonna make it pretty damn difficult for anyone to interrupt the stream by only including cablecard support with the OEM's and making it more proprietary.

It took Tivo this long to release the Series III and who knows if the Vista MCE will ever support it - Hollywierd is just too paranoid.

Oh, yes I would upgrade in a heartbeat if it could do HD - looks like my x-mas will be ruined waiting for frickin cablecard...

Thursday, November 02, 2006 3:46 PM by KingBuzzo