[There's a reason that Yoda is the unofficial mascot of SBS.  Size indeed matters not.] Do the smart thing and walk away - THE OFFICIAL BLOG OF THE SBS DIVA
Tue, Nov 25 2008 18:00 bradley

Do the smart thing and walk away

Question: I've just read this comment from another tech: 1. Server 08
Has a Vista backbone, and all of the quirks and nusances that go along
with being beta tested on as a customer. (shame on you MS) 2. Vista is
an IT Professionals nightmare. With 7 different flavors of the same OS,
all but three are essentially "home versions" that have various
functionality hollowed out of them. This was done in an effort to gouge
you into buying Ultimate, Business, or Enterprise additions which are
the equivalent of XP Pro, respectively. Unless you have one of these 3,
you can give up the hopes of remote desktop sessions, or having the
ability to join a domain. 3. Vista and XP do not play nice together.
Simply put....Not compatible in a networked enviroment. 4. Unless your
client has A shiny New 08 server, with all workstations being Vista
Business, and some pretty deep pockets to pay you for reaserch and Admin
time.... Do the smart thing and walk away. What are your comments on
2008?


So during the www.thirdtier.net webcast with Amy and Eriq, one of the Q&A questions was this one above.  Wow.  There are just so many things one can comment about that question isn't there? Let's first get some reality.  While one may not like all of the Home Premium, Basic and what not, the three business versions of Vista including Ultimate, Business and Enterprise are indeed the only ones that will join a domain.  It is what it is.

 Next, the idea that Vista and XP do play nice together.  I guess I must be the oddball as I can get them to play nice. 

The idea that unless your client only has Server 2008 and Vista that you need to walk away from Windows 2008?

Now there are those that call my hestiation to go hog wild on cloud solutions as being one sided cloud bashing.  Personally, I call it making personal decisions for my firm and holding back to watch the fallout before choosing sides.  As I have stated before "at this time, for MY firm" I cannot recommend changing my premises solutions to a cloud one.  They are not comparable at this time with the technology I have and what I plan to have. 

But that doesn't mean that I'm advocating that one puts their head in the sand, doesn't sign up for betas for such things, should look to a cloud vendor to partner with and what not.

And I'm certainly not advocating the attitude evidenced in that question.  For that tech that originally posted the original comment, why in the world are you in technology in the first place for heaven's sake?  Did you have a hard time learning Windows NT?  Did you hate moving to Windows 2000?  If that was a change you embraced, what has changed between then and now?

If technology is your job and this is your attitude maybe this is time to reevaluate your career choices?  I don't mean to be harsh or rude, but the attitude that I see in that post floors me and I see it much too often on the web lately...this closed attitude.

I'm not willing to learn.

I'm not willing to investigate.

I'm not willing to sign up for betas.

For the record I have and will continue to investigate cloud offerings.  I am deploying Vista.  I have Windows Server 2008.  I plan on SBS 2008.  My plans may change.  My decisions may change.  I will still be cautious and hold back and watch what the vendors do and move and change to and guide MY firm accordingly.  But to say "Do the smart thing and walk away".... I think that person needs to take a break from technology.

Watch this... how will Technology change in the next 10 years:

http://www.microsoft.com/emea/teched2008/itpro/tv/default.aspx?vid=79

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# re: Do the smart thing and walk away

Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:09 PM by indy

Hilarious that you say "holding back to watch the fallout" but yet you yourself are jumping on this not even service packed SBS 2008 version and was praising the tenets of Vista pre-SP1.

"Did you have a hard time learning Windows NT?  Did you hate moving to Windows 2000?  If that was a change you embraced, what has changed between then and now?"

The operating systems no longer were in beta.  Many of us do not want to be Microsoft's guinea pig.  We want stable environments.  We don't want to test for Microsoft.  We want fewer reboots (why I had to reboot for three random patches for Vista today, I'll fathom a guess that it had to do with Vista stability...)

# re: Do the smart thing and walk away

Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:07 AM by bradley

I deployed SBS 2003 without a service pack.

Vista is stable and so is Windows 2008.  You do realize that the Service pack for Windows 2008 is deemed SP2?

You patched without understanding the patches you installed, Indy?  Why?

# re: Do the smart thing and walk away

Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:28 AM by Amy B

SBS 2008 is not un-tested and not service packed. You'll not be a guinea pig. Think about it. SBS is a collection of previously released, service packed and updated applications. Someone else has already gone through the process for you. SBS 2008 is as rock solid as the unlying applications. As I stated during the presentation, it's not the applications that need to come up to speed, its us technicians.

# re: Do the smart thing and walk away

Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:51 AM by Jim Maher

Again, WHY switch to Vista?

XP works.  We have sufficient security software and organizational policies deployed to manage the client risk.

WHY pay more, in licensing and training and support?  What's the dollar ROI?  How is that avhieved?

We don't fear change.  We also don't embrace change simply for the sake of change.

Show me the return, and concvince me it's achievable, and then we can consider the investment.  Until our clients see a return, they should not and willl not make an expenditure.

j

# re: Do the smart thing and walk away

Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:08 AM by bradley

Because I'm buying new computers and refuse to buy old code on new hardware.

I'm not advocating upgrading systems.  I'm not on my SBS 2003.  But when that hardware is needing a change out.  I'm not putting old code on it.

Secondly the speed difference in surfing is measurable.  The speed in file transfers IS indeed measurable when a Win2k8 is somewhere in the network.

# re: Do the smart thing and walk away

Wednesday, November 26, 2008 3:45 PM by Alexander Kunz

I quietly read your blog for quite a while now, but please, this time, its too much blind MS advocacy here, really.

My real world experience is that Vista is ALWAYS slower than XP for the everyday tasks. Example: installing a new printer in our network. It takes 3 times longer on Vista than on XP. Who knows why. In general, getting things done on Vista ALWAYS takes longer, because of the breaks the system seems to take all the time for who-knows what reason. And then there's the workstation machine in our office, with Vista 64bit on it. It simply won't run stable, we had the mainboard, processor, memory and everything exchanged, installed from scratch, all the latest drivers, all the updates, but it keeps crashing at will. And its the machine my boss is using. The word for that is NIGHTMARE.

One observation that sums up how much thought went into the "logic" of the Vista design and how everything is "so much easier to access": look for the energy options. In a time where that buzzword "green IT" is on every street, there's no configuration option for the energy options. You have to know that they're hidden in the screensaver options, just like they always used to be. And nobody knows what hides behind the three default options in Vista. It can't really be just the screensaver and standby that is influenced by these options, its a lot more. But is it accessible anywhere? NO.

And Server 2008 and Exchange 2007? All the technical articles are full of cryptic commandline stuff you have to do to get things configured right. MS commandline parameters have never been very user friendly, but the powershell stuff is really driving me insane. Who can remember all that? Whats that about? Way back in time, the human-readable .ini files were moved into that thing called registry, and were only accessible "normally" through a GUI from then on - OK. And now they throw the GUI away and want us to fiddle around with the commandline to get things in the registry configured right? Whoah. More? Why did MS change the email user config path back to Exchange 5.5 style into the system manager? It simply breaks the approach at a unified place to set things up. If there are new features and new techniques, they should be accessible!

The year is 2008, and things should become EASIER, even for the *** admins from hell. But thats just not the case. Read the article how SBS2008's junkmail filters works and how they packed every technique into it - it simply gives me the creeps. This has nothing to do with exploration. This is insanity.

Every time I look at either Vista or Server 2008 I end up thinking "what, oh what have they done?!"

# re: Do the smart thing and walk away

Wednesday, November 26, 2008 3:54 PM by bradley

I always flip to the classic view of the control panel, and then I get to the power settings in the Power Section?

Can you send me any .dmp file from that Vista 64.  Crashes need to be gotten to the bottom of.

All I can say is that I have four HPs running Vista and none are slower, none crash.  I have three Dells running Vista.  Also not slower, not crashing  This isn't blindness this is what I personally experience.

Run SBS 2008.  I've yet to HAVE to know powershell to run Exchange.  Maybe that's a crutch but again, that's my personal experience.

If all of these annoy you then maybe you should be looking for other technology solutions.  All I'm saying is that I'm seeing too many folks just not wanting to learn anything new.

# re: Do the smart thing and walk away

Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:06 PM by Joe_Raby

I build systems every day for a living, and every system ships with Vista x64 unless there is some kind of legacy software that doesn't run on it.  Most customers buy Software Assurance, so they can run Virtual PC for some of those legacy apps, or else they can run them on an SBS Premium server with downgrade licensing so as to run the app in Terminal Services.  Very few opt out of 64-bit versions, and XP isn't even an option anymore, since most business-class systems ship with 4GB (RAM is cheap, and I only sell quality systems).  Most Authorized Microsoft Distributors have XP on a long waiting list anyway, so the hassle of obtaining it isn't something that customers are waiting for.

I can tell you flat out that there are absolutely NO stability issues with Windows Vista x64, nor with Microsoft software running on it.  The only problems I've seen is with third-party hardware or software that isn't supported, of which, anything modern usually isn't part of that classification.  Most of those vendors don't care about the business outcome of the customers though, and they don't last long in the marketplace by not supporting new systems.  One particular kind of company are those business-class-document-imaging-companies-that-only-offer-support-through-resellers kind.  I recommend clients to stay away from those.  When a reseller closes up shop, your warranty is suddenly void, and another reseller is all too willing to service it - only for a very expensive consulting fee.  Luckily there are enough respectable companies out there to make up for the pathetic few.

I have seen numerous small PC builders close up shop around me though, because they don't learn how to build PC's properly.  Driver certification isn't part of their vocabulary, and they don't know the acronym WHQL.  Their loss, my gain.  Sales are actually up this month over last.

I'm also a Small Business Specialist, so my consulting practises merge into sales fairly easily.  I am literally a one-stop shop for small business IT.  (I also build and sell home PC's too)

By building my own systems, I know them inside and out.  I know the reliability of the components - I know, because I choose and test them myself.  I know how well they work with the software, and designing an IT infrastructure is a little more fine-grained in my shop, because I get right down to the component level when planning the platform.  It's a level of control that you can't really get by reselling OEM hardware.

I also don't preload any junkware, and custom-tailor the software loadout from day-one.  From top-to-bottom, I can design a complete IT SMB platform solution from the component level, all the way to end-user support.  So I do have a bit of understanding about SBS 2008, 2003, Vista, and XP, and how they all work on different computer hardware.